Thank you for contributing to the thread today Anonymous Professor. Interesting to learn about Mussolini supporting the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. My admiration and respect goes out to all the Baltic Folks and Poles who suffered at the hands of the Stalinist commie scum and Nazi scum. Being terrorized by the dictators from Austria and Georgia must have been a really horrific experience. Its great to see that the Poles have a memorial. The Baltics should build a memorial to honor their resistance fighters (The Forest Brothers i believe they were called) if they don't have one already.
Hitler&Stalin pact against Europe
- Thread starter AnonymousProfesor
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- Sep 2019
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French communists offered themselves to Petain to testify in court against Daladier and Leon Blum their former ally in Popular Front before the pact between Nazi Germany and communist USSR
Already just after the capitulation of France communists from Paris in their local newspaper called for public trial against politicians which 'brought France to war'. Leon Blum was mentioned by name. When in August of 1940 communists learned that Petain will establish a court to try former politicians communists offered to testify against them. Communist propaganda at that time was filled with calls against so called British agents, like De Gaulle which are 'still trying to bring war in France'. Their refrain was still the same even in June 1941 just before the start of German invasion against USSR. 'Down with imperialistic war! De Gaulle... is killing the children of France for the sake of England.' Communists protested when Petain released 'traitors' like Marx Dormoy or Vincent Auriol both members of Popular Front.
Between the Junes: The French communists from the collapse of France to the invasion of Russia. Article published in Journal of contemporary history, vol. 3, 1993, pages 465-485.
www.jstor.org
Hitler and Stalin Pact against Europe, written by Johann Wolfgang Brugel, published in Ljubljana, 2019, pages 188 and 198.
Already just after the capitulation of France communists from Paris in their local newspaper called for public trial against politicians which 'brought France to war'. Leon Blum was mentioned by name. When in August of 1940 communists learned that Petain will establish a court to try former politicians communists offered to testify against them. Communist propaganda at that time was filled with calls against so called British agents, like De Gaulle which are 'still trying to bring war in France'. Their refrain was still the same even in June 1941 just before the start of German invasion against USSR. 'Down with imperialistic war! De Gaulle... is killing the children of France for the sake of England.' Communists protested when Petain released 'traitors' like Marx Dormoy or Vincent Auriol both members of Popular Front.
Between the Junes: The French communists from the collapse of France to the invasion of Russia. Article published in Journal of contemporary history, vol. 3, 1993, pages 465-485.
Between the Junes: The French Communists from the Collapse of France to the Invasion of Russia on JSTOR
David Wingeate Pike, Between the Junes: The French Communists from the Collapse of France to the Invasion of Russia, Journal of Contemporary History, Vol. 28, No. 3 (Jul., 1993), pp. 465-485
www.jstor.org
Hitler and Stalin Pact against Europe, written by Johann Wolfgang Brugel, published in Ljubljana, 2019, pages 188 and 198.
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When the war on western front was over Hitler turned his attention toward USSR. Already in July 1941 it was decided that Soviet union should be attacked in spring of 1941. Hitler was thinking that Soviet union was the last hope for Britain after the fall of France. If USSR is destroyed England will lose all its hopes and Third Reich will be the master in Europe and in Balkans. Yet despite this because war with UK was still going on, Hitler and Ribbentrop still thought that Soviet union may be able to help them in dividing and destroying British empire. That's why Ribbentrop invited Molotov to Berlin in October 1940 and he really came in November for the very important talks how to divide new spheres of influence.
Meanwhile the relations between USSR and Third Reich were still pretty much good. Their main common enemy was still so called British imperialism. British communists were blaiming for example their government for the alliance between Third Reich and Japan in September 1940, because they are receiving help from USA. They were also proclaiming to the public that all talk about Hitler's aggressive mood toward USSR is a lie, the truth is that he was forced by powerful Soviet Union to concentrate its war efforts on weak capitalistic England. That was in the time when UK was under rain of German bombs.
Hitler and Stalin Pact against Europe, written by Johann Wolfgang Brugel, published in Ljubljana, 2019, pages 192-208.
The rise and fall of the Third Reich, book 2, written by William Shirer, published in Ljubljana, 1969, pages 1142-1143.
Meanwhile the relations between USSR and Third Reich were still pretty much good. Their main common enemy was still so called British imperialism. British communists were blaiming for example their government for the alliance between Third Reich and Japan in September 1940, because they are receiving help from USA. They were also proclaiming to the public that all talk about Hitler's aggressive mood toward USSR is a lie, the truth is that he was forced by powerful Soviet Union to concentrate its war efforts on weak capitalistic England. That was in the time when UK was under rain of German bombs.
Hitler and Stalin Pact against Europe, written by Johann Wolfgang Brugel, published in Ljubljana, 2019, pages 192-208.
The rise and fall of the Third Reich, book 2, written by William Shirer, published in Ljubljana, 1969, pages 1142-1143.
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- Sep 2019
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Negotiations in Berlin how to divide new spheres of influence, November 1940.
Molotov arrived in Berlin on 12.11. 1940. On the same and during the next day he had very important talks with both Hitler and Ribbentrop. Ribbentrop underlined how both sides benefited much after they divided spheres of influence in eastern Erurope. Nazi leaders wanted that USSR will join their pact with Italy and Japan so that this alliance would become pact of four totalitarian states. They insisted that now is the time to divide British empire. Soviet union should get land toward Persian gulf and Indian ocean as its new spheres of influence. Germany would create new lebensraum in Africa for itself. Molotov did not decline this but he was more interested in Europe. He was not glad that Germany sent some troops in Finnland claiming Finnland is in Soviet sphere according to secret protocol of Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. When he was asked what they would like to do with Finnland Molotov answered that the same as they did with Bessarabia, so annexation to USSR. Hitler was not glad about this answer. Soviet foreign minister was also interested in security alliance with Bulgaria and in Soviet influence in Turkey specially concerning sea straits Bosporus and Dardanelles.
When Molotov went back in Moscow Soviet government agreed to consider joining the great alliance of four totalitarian states proposed by Hitler but under its own conditions. Soviets demanded that German troops should leave Finnland but Soviet union will not attack it. Germans will still receive wood and nickel from this country. However in secret protocol the question of Finnland should be again solved taking it into account that it lies in the Soviet sphere of influence. Second condition was that USSR will make a security alliance with Bulgaria and establish military base in Bosporus and Dardanelles. Soviet union was ready to take the land toward Persian gulf as its sphere of influence, but did not say nothing about India.
Hitler was not glad with this answer. He tried to put Soviet union out of Europe so that it will concenrate on British colonies in Asia. But apparently Stalin insisted Europe is in his domain too. Because of this Hitler ordered his generals should speed up preparations for the attack on USSR.
Hitler and Stalin Pact against Europe, written by Johann Wolfgang Brugel, published in Ljubljana, 2019, pages 210-226. .
The rise and fall of the Third Reich, book 2, written by William Shirer, published in Ljubljana, 1969, pages 1146-1161.
Molotov arrived in Berlin on 12.11. 1940. On the same and during the next day he had very important talks with both Hitler and Ribbentrop. Ribbentrop underlined how both sides benefited much after they divided spheres of influence in eastern Erurope. Nazi leaders wanted that USSR will join their pact with Italy and Japan so that this alliance would become pact of four totalitarian states. They insisted that now is the time to divide British empire. Soviet union should get land toward Persian gulf and Indian ocean as its new spheres of influence. Germany would create new lebensraum in Africa for itself. Molotov did not decline this but he was more interested in Europe. He was not glad that Germany sent some troops in Finnland claiming Finnland is in Soviet sphere according to secret protocol of Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. When he was asked what they would like to do with Finnland Molotov answered that the same as they did with Bessarabia, so annexation to USSR. Hitler was not glad about this answer. Soviet foreign minister was also interested in security alliance with Bulgaria and in Soviet influence in Turkey specially concerning sea straits Bosporus and Dardanelles.
When Molotov went back in Moscow Soviet government agreed to consider joining the great alliance of four totalitarian states proposed by Hitler but under its own conditions. Soviets demanded that German troops should leave Finnland but Soviet union will not attack it. Germans will still receive wood and nickel from this country. However in secret protocol the question of Finnland should be again solved taking it into account that it lies in the Soviet sphere of influence. Second condition was that USSR will make a security alliance with Bulgaria and establish military base in Bosporus and Dardanelles. Soviet union was ready to take the land toward Persian gulf as its sphere of influence, but did not say nothing about India.
Hitler was not glad with this answer. He tried to put Soviet union out of Europe so that it will concenrate on British colonies in Asia. But apparently Stalin insisted Europe is in his domain too. Because of this Hitler ordered his generals should speed up preparations for the attack on USSR.
Hitler and Stalin Pact against Europe, written by Johann Wolfgang Brugel, published in Ljubljana, 2019, pages 210-226. .
The rise and fall of the Third Reich, book 2, written by William Shirer, published in Ljubljana, 1969, pages 1146-1161.
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deaf tuner
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Now and then I have the impression I'm reading "Stalin & Hitler for (not enough) dummies (yet)".
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Despite many warnings that Third Reich will attack USSR Stalin continued with his alliance with Hitler. Why did Stalin ignore the yearlong military buildup in eastern Europe and by one count 87 separate, credible intelligence warnings of the German invasion that he received during 1940–41 is still until today an open question? Some suggested that Stalin was so sure that alliance with Germany is strategically important that it should last as long as possible. Some communists were saying during the time of alliance and later that Stalin enabled division and fighting between so called capitalist world making it weaker, but at the right time he was ready to react. Stalin's daughter Svetlana confirmed later how much was Stalin convinced that alliance with Third Reich is neccessary claiming even after WW2 before her and others that together with Germany Soviet Union would be invincible. It is a fact that USSR was building its war industry and heavy weapons very fast during the time of Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, but it was not yet prepared for big scale war in spring of 1941. In May 1941 general Zhukov proposed preemptive strike against Germany, because German attack is imminent but as we know his proposal was not accepted. So was Stalin deluded that he will be able to buy time if he will continue to support Hitler? To postpone a war for a year, hoping that Hitler will first deal with England? In February 1941 German communist Walter Ulbricht told his comrades that Comintern discussed some scenarios about the end of WW2. They thought at that time war could end with communist revolution in Europe supported by USSR, but on the other hand it is also possible that war will end with compromise between England/USA and Third Reich if no side would see the possibility of winning over the other. It seems possible that Stalin was feeding Hitler with materials needed for war because he did not want that the war would end with compromise, but rather it should make both sides weak and USSR as strong as possible so that communist revolution in Europe will happen in near future. We know Herman Goering who was second man in Third Reich was thinking that war with Soviet union should start only after England is defeated, such scenario would benefit Stalin and Comintern. That I will argue is a credible theory.
Be it one way or another the fact is that USSR supplied Germany with great amounts of materials neccessary for war during the first months of 1941. German report from May 1941 is saying that they received during the last months from Soviets 632.000 tons of grain, 232.000 tons of oil, 23.500 tons of cotton, 50.000 tons of mangan ore, 90.000 tons of phosphates, 900 kg of platinum. Even when Bulgaria signed Tripartite Pact on 1 March 1941 and joined the Axis bloc this trend did not change. We saw before how Soviet union wanted Bulgaria in its security alliance. Molotov said to German ambassador that he is sorry that this happened but nothing more.
Hitler and Stalin Pact against Europe, written by Johann Wolfgang Brugel, published in Ljubljana, 2019, pages 229-236; 248.
The Icebreaker controversy: Did Stalin plan to attack Hitler? Slavic Review Vol. 58, No. 3 (Autumn, 1999), pp. 626-643
Be it one way or another the fact is that USSR supplied Germany with great amounts of materials neccessary for war during the first months of 1941. German report from May 1941 is saying that they received during the last months from Soviets 632.000 tons of grain, 232.000 tons of oil, 23.500 tons of cotton, 50.000 tons of mangan ore, 90.000 tons of phosphates, 900 kg of platinum. Even when Bulgaria signed Tripartite Pact on 1 March 1941 and joined the Axis bloc this trend did not change. We saw before how Soviet union wanted Bulgaria in its security alliance. Molotov said to German ambassador that he is sorry that this happened but nothing more.
Hitler and Stalin Pact against Europe, written by Johann Wolfgang Brugel, published in Ljubljana, 2019, pages 229-236; 248.
The Icebreaker controversy: Did Stalin plan to attack Hitler? Slavic Review Vol. 58, No. 3 (Autumn, 1999), pp. 626-643
What Stalin Knew: The Enigma of Barbarossa — Central Intelligence Agency
What Stalin Knew: The Enigma of Barbarossa
www.cia.gov
deaf tuner
Ad Honoris
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Just to avoid possible misunderstandings do to the use of the verb "received", (as it's usually is used in acceptions like "receiving a gift" or "receiving a bribe").
The more appropriate word would be "delivered". As it was in the context of a extensive commercial agreement.
URSS was importing more than 50% of the German production.
Professor, maybe in that book, there is also a list with what Germany was delivering to URSS? It would be instructive to know.
- Sep 2019
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War in Balkans
In this last post about the pact between Stalin and Hitler i would like to talk about war in Balkans in spring of 1941. War can be seen as prelude to operation Barbarossa. It was started because Italy under Mussolini attacked Greece in October 1940, but Italians were not doing well. So they asked help from Hitler who was not glad about their attack. He wanted Balkans as quiet place so that he could be able to concenrate on planned operation Barbarossa. Germany tried to lure kingdom of Yugoslavia to join tripartite pact by promising to prince and regent Paul that they will respect country's borders and that port city of Solun/Thessaloniki can go under Yugoslavia after Greece is defeated. UK promised on the other hand correction of border between Yugoslavia and Italy if Yugoslavia will join their side. Prince Paul felt Yugoslavia is weak and indeed signed pact with Germany but that caused great revolt between people specially in Serbia, but also in Slovenia then British supported coup followed on 27th of March 1941. General Dušan Simovič took over government and young king Peter II was proclaimed old enough to rule without regent. Simovič sent some representatives to Greece and some to Soviet union. To talk possible joined operations with the allies if Greece would be attacked by Germany and to make an alliance with USSR which would guarantee Yugoslavia's borders. He realized Yugoslavia is indeed completely surrounded by enemies and to weak to go in war with Germany at this point of time. Alliance with Soviet union could buy time and protection he hoped.
We saw already how important was Balkan for Soviets. They prefered to spread their influence in this region during November 1940 talks with Third Reich. Soviet union at first promised an alliance which will include a security guarantee that if Yugoslavia was attacked that would mean also Soviet union is attacked. Yet USSR and Yugoslavia at end signed just so called treaty of friendship between two states, which had in fact no real value. Molotov informed German side in advance that such contract will be signed claiming Soviet Union 'wants peace like Germany in Balkans'. Treaty was signed on 5.4. 1941. Communist party of Yugoslavia tried to organize big manifestation in Belgrade before Soviet embassy on 6. April celebrating this treaty, but at that day German aggression started. Molotov again said he was sorry about this developement but did not even protest. Comintern apparently ordered to German and Austrian communists that they should tell Hitler what Soviet government was afraid and not ready to do. So they proclaimed how they support 'just fight of people of Yugoslavia against German imperialist aggression'. Schulenburg reported how Soviet leaders were thinking war in Balkan will be longer because of terrain. That would explain why probably also Tito was at first calculating that the war will be longer. He was thinking with the line of Comintern as its old agent.
But when war in Yugoslavia and Greece was finished Soviet union was ready to do further steps to convince Third Reich that they are loyal partner. Yugoslavia was declared completely destroyed by aggressors yet its government still existed in exile in London and its territory was divided between Germany, Italy, Bulgaria, Hungary and collaborators from Croatia so called ustashe. Annexation of large parts of territory were made and large new ustasha puppet state was established even before the end of war what was contrary to international law. Soviet union accepted this new situation and broke diplomatic relationship with Yugoslav government on 8.5.1941.
Communist of Yugoslavia started with collaboration with axis forces before 22.6.1941
During the time of war communist party in its propaganda supported war efforts and some communists joined the royal army trying to get positions in armed forces and later communists were hiding weapons of disbanded royal army to use it in planned future Soviet revolution. But very soon it was decided that so called British imperialism together with Yugoslav government in exile and its supporters at home are their main enemies. At the end of April 1941 communist leaders met in Zagreb and decided that they will fight against the government of Simovič and against the British. Communist leader Milovan Djilas who later became dissident confirmed how at the same meeting they decided also to fight against pro-western, non-communist resistance movements and that it is allowed to betray them to occupation authorities. In Slovenia for example in May 1941 members of resistance group called TIGR were betrayed to Italians by local communist. In Serbia in June 1941 before war between USSR and Nazi Germany started communists made propaganda leaflet calling people to fight with force against non-communist resistance movements, because they are like fighting against future soviet regime in Yugoslavia.
As Yugoslav communists also other communists continued with their fight against 'imperialistic war' until 22. 6. 1941 when they completely changed their propaganda. Togliatti for example claimed at the end of May 1941 that the real goal of Italian communists is that people in Italian and British colonies will become free. Communists from Belgium were claiming in June 1941 that Belgians should not look at UK and USA as possible liberators. Soviet news agency TASS reported a few days before German attack how movements of German forces from Balkans to eastern Europe do not have any connections to relations between USSR and Germany.
Hitler and Stalin Pact against Europe, written by Johann Wolfgang Brugel, published in Ljubljana, 2019, pages 237-254.
Bermanov dosje, written by dr. Aleksander Bajt, published in Ljubljana, 1999, pages 774, 822-824.
en.wikipedia.org
In this last post about the pact between Stalin and Hitler i would like to talk about war in Balkans in spring of 1941. War can be seen as prelude to operation Barbarossa. It was started because Italy under Mussolini attacked Greece in October 1940, but Italians were not doing well. So they asked help from Hitler who was not glad about their attack. He wanted Balkans as quiet place so that he could be able to concenrate on planned operation Barbarossa. Germany tried to lure kingdom of Yugoslavia to join tripartite pact by promising to prince and regent Paul that they will respect country's borders and that port city of Solun/Thessaloniki can go under Yugoslavia after Greece is defeated. UK promised on the other hand correction of border between Yugoslavia and Italy if Yugoslavia will join their side. Prince Paul felt Yugoslavia is weak and indeed signed pact with Germany but that caused great revolt between people specially in Serbia, but also in Slovenia then British supported coup followed on 27th of March 1941. General Dušan Simovič took over government and young king Peter II was proclaimed old enough to rule without regent. Simovič sent some representatives to Greece and some to Soviet union. To talk possible joined operations with the allies if Greece would be attacked by Germany and to make an alliance with USSR which would guarantee Yugoslavia's borders. He realized Yugoslavia is indeed completely surrounded by enemies and to weak to go in war with Germany at this point of time. Alliance with Soviet union could buy time and protection he hoped.
We saw already how important was Balkan for Soviets. They prefered to spread their influence in this region during November 1940 talks with Third Reich. Soviet union at first promised an alliance which will include a security guarantee that if Yugoslavia was attacked that would mean also Soviet union is attacked. Yet USSR and Yugoslavia at end signed just so called treaty of friendship between two states, which had in fact no real value. Molotov informed German side in advance that such contract will be signed claiming Soviet Union 'wants peace like Germany in Balkans'. Treaty was signed on 5.4. 1941. Communist party of Yugoslavia tried to organize big manifestation in Belgrade before Soviet embassy on 6. April celebrating this treaty, but at that day German aggression started. Molotov again said he was sorry about this developement but did not even protest. Comintern apparently ordered to German and Austrian communists that they should tell Hitler what Soviet government was afraid and not ready to do. So they proclaimed how they support 'just fight of people of Yugoslavia against German imperialist aggression'. Schulenburg reported how Soviet leaders were thinking war in Balkan will be longer because of terrain. That would explain why probably also Tito was at first calculating that the war will be longer. He was thinking with the line of Comintern as its old agent.
But when war in Yugoslavia and Greece was finished Soviet union was ready to do further steps to convince Third Reich that they are loyal partner. Yugoslavia was declared completely destroyed by aggressors yet its government still existed in exile in London and its territory was divided between Germany, Italy, Bulgaria, Hungary and collaborators from Croatia so called ustashe. Annexation of large parts of territory were made and large new ustasha puppet state was established even before the end of war what was contrary to international law. Soviet union accepted this new situation and broke diplomatic relationship with Yugoslav government on 8.5.1941.
Communist of Yugoslavia started with collaboration with axis forces before 22.6.1941
During the time of war communist party in its propaganda supported war efforts and some communists joined the royal army trying to get positions in armed forces and later communists were hiding weapons of disbanded royal army to use it in planned future Soviet revolution. But very soon it was decided that so called British imperialism together with Yugoslav government in exile and its supporters at home are their main enemies. At the end of April 1941 communist leaders met in Zagreb and decided that they will fight against the government of Simovič and against the British. Communist leader Milovan Djilas who later became dissident confirmed how at the same meeting they decided also to fight against pro-western, non-communist resistance movements and that it is allowed to betray them to occupation authorities. In Slovenia for example in May 1941 members of resistance group called TIGR were betrayed to Italians by local communist. In Serbia in June 1941 before war between USSR and Nazi Germany started communists made propaganda leaflet calling people to fight with force against non-communist resistance movements, because they are like fighting against future soviet regime in Yugoslavia.
As Yugoslav communists also other communists continued with their fight against 'imperialistic war' until 22. 6. 1941 when they completely changed their propaganda. Togliatti for example claimed at the end of May 1941 that the real goal of Italian communists is that people in Italian and British colonies will become free. Communists from Belgium were claiming in June 1941 that Belgians should not look at UK and USA as possible liberators. Soviet news agency TASS reported a few days before German attack how movements of German forces from Balkans to eastern Europe do not have any connections to relations between USSR and Germany.
Hitler and Stalin Pact against Europe, written by Johann Wolfgang Brugel, published in Ljubljana, 2019, pages 237-254.
Bermanov dosje, written by dr. Aleksander Bajt, published in Ljubljana, 1999, pages 774, 822-824.
Yugoslav coup d'état - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
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- Sep 2019
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@deaf tuner yes very big economic contract between USSR and Third Reich was signed in January 1941 replacing the old one which was made after signing of Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. It was the biggest economic contract ever signed by Germany as dr. Karl Schnurre chief German trade negotiator wrote. But it was not just about trade and avoidning British embargo on Third Reich. Soviet union was also supporting Germany with materials needed for war as reparations for the land in Lithuania which Soviet union annexed. According to secret protocol from 28.9. 1939 Germany should get south-western part of Lithuania.
deaf tuner
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Yes, and CCCP paid Germany for having it.
It wasn't exactly my question. I was wandering if they are figures in Your book on what and how much Germany delivered to CCCP.