Holodomor: Death by Hunger in Ukraine

Status
Closed
Jul 2011
21
#1
In 1932-33 the Soviet government of Joseph Stalin organised a deliberate starvation in Ukraine to break resistance to communist rule. www.holodomorct.org/history.html This man made famine caused as many as 10 million deaths but the media doesn't like to report on the holodomor as much as the holocaust because Stalin was on the winning side in world war 2 and many journalists like to refer to him as one of the "good guys".
 
Jun 2009
1,608
Slovakia
#2
If you wish to learn more about holodomor, I suggest doing so from a source which doesn't give number of victims from discredited guesswork and doesn't show pictures from different events as if they were pictures of holodomor (following Nazi propagandists in this, even using the exactly same pictures).

This site employs propaganda methods, not much better from that of communists.

PS: The site uses false pictures probably knowingly, because among links it links to http://www.garethjones.org/soviet_articles/thomas_walker/muss_russland_hungern.htm , a site which discusses this problem at great lengths. But of course, real propagandist always takes only what suits his agenda, and keeps silence about the rest.
 

KGB

Ad Honorem
Apr 2011
3,385
#3
One of the best sources of this matter is gen. Piotr Grigorenko`s book "There are only rats underground" (В подполье можно встретить только крыс) I am not sure in English translation.

The hunger was massive. I have terrible memoirs of a Russian solider, who survived it as a kid. One of the greatest crimes of the communist regime...
 

ktisis

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
2,152
Russia, Msk
#4
One of the best sources of this matter is gen. Piotr Grigorenko`s book "There are only rats underground" (В подполье можно встретить только крыс) I am not sure in English translation.

The hunger was massive. I have terrible memoirs of a Russian solider, who survived it as a kid. One of the greatest crimes of the communist regime...
I've read his book. Well, he writes about Holodomor very little. In fact he wrote nothing proving his approval of the deliberate creation of famine. Government measures aimed at mitigating effects of famine say against the version of the intent to destroy millions of people. And his book definitely include a lie. For ex., when he describes the so-called "Stalin Line", he writes that it was blown up before the war. However, it is known that this line of fortifications was not blown up. It was put out of service, because it needed in modernization and rearmament. The reasons for its breakthrough was a lot. Among them - a stealing and an incompetence during building (including incorrect concrete, stealing of reinforcement etc.), a moral obsolescence (the vast majority emplacements were machine-gun positions, a lack of depth, lack of anti-tank barriers in many areas), an incompetence of the military high command (which couldn't fill the line by troops in time that led to encirclement of fortified areas).
 
Aug 2010
6,740
Ireland
#5
well does it really matter much that he would get that wrong when the book isn't on soviet defence but the ukrainian famine.

for the record the stalin line wasn't really a line but more a series of forts in a rough line along the pre 1939 border. as for why it failed the very nature of the soviet-german war should answer that as it was all about massive offensives and counter offensives so it was maneuver that matters not so much fixed defences, at least not in regard to a line that is meant to hold an enemy back indefinitely. tank spearheads effectively negated the usefulness of these forts as a total defence barrier ut they did still pose a strong obsocole in a direct assault.
 

ktisis

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
2,152
Russia, Msk
#6
well does it really matter much that he would get that wrong when the book isn't on soviet defence but the ukrainian famine.
This book is not about "Ukrainian" famine (the famine was not in Ukrainian SSR only - but in Volga Region, Kazakhstan, Belorussian SSR, North Caucasus, West Siberia and in another regions of USSR too). This is memoirs of Grigorenko about his turning from communist fanatic to anti-communist fanatic.
 
Aug 2010
6,740
Ireland
#7
This book is not about "Ukrainian" famine (the famine was not in Ukrainian SSR only - but in Volga Region, Kazakhstan, Belorussian SSR, North Caucasus, West Siberia and in another regions of USSR too). This is memoirs of Grigorenko about his turning from communist fanatic to anti-communist fanatic.
wait so all this was a result of stalin's policies in a man made famine. were these other areas natural famines or was it the same as the ukraine because i was aways under the impression that it was limited to the ukraine.
 
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ktisis

Ad Honorem
Aug 2009
2,152
Russia, Msk
#8
wait so all this was a result of stalin's policies in a mad made famine. were these other areas natural famines or was it the same as the ukraine because i was aways under the impression that it was limited to the ukraine.
Although there were many reasons, among the main is a policy of dekulakization and collectivization. It was a struggle with the peasantry. Which did not accept collectivization, including the sabotage of harvesting (incidentally, Grigorenko also mentions about it). The government was not going to put up with it and used force to seize food in line with planned yields (excluding the actual yield - this was new method of estimate of yield, adopted in 1932 year). The result - all was confiscated from the peasants. Of course, everything may be blamed on local officials who wanted to provide "good" statistics in Moscow (Stalin subsequently did so), but I do not believe that Stalin did not understand what was happening on the local level. The aim was not to kill millions of people, the aim was to extort resources from peasantry for financing of industrialization. Accordingly, the most affected areas were those where the foundation of the economy was agriculture. Not only Ukraine.

But Ukrainians are speculating on deaths of millons of peasants and trying to present the matter as if the famine was an instrument of genocide of the Ukrainians. And only the Ukrainians. It's disgusting. They deserve to be called the true Stalinists who do that.
 
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Aug 2010
6,740
Ireland
#9
interesting, i had no idea of its effect in other areas. do we have any estimates on the numbers that died in these other areas

as for stalins reasons it definitely does seems more plausible that the reason for it was to get the resources from them to increase industrialization rather then just a mass killing to crush ukrainian opposition to collectivation which is the usual reason that is given for the famine. still brutal and immensely cruel but more understandable now.
 
Jul 2011
2,749
#10
The book is a libel. Malnutrition happened every 3 years , famine happened every ten years in tsarist Russia. Storages of last year's harvest saved peasants from the 'starve death'.What happened in Soviet Russia, which was ensued by the wanton death of many people. The wheat trade used to bring in the significant part of anniversary revenue. Stalin sank the money into industrialization. Thus, the whole crop was sold and nothing was preserved. Peasants were vulnerable for every nature devastation since 1930 year. In 1933 the drought was austere, and the Soviet government cannot prevent death of hundreds thousands peasants. So they were mainly guilty in fatal negligence, than in participation of those horrendous actions. The number of 10 millions was thumped up and has nothing to do with reality. The unbiased appraisals give number less than a scant million. The population of the USSR increased in that time.
 
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