Holy Trinity a Fake?

Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,941
Romania
#41
As a Christian, when I deal with the Hebrew Tanakh [Old Testament] I feel I'm invading the field of an other Abrahamic religion.

Jews have never seen clues of a Trinity in their Bible ... Christians see them.

Now ... the basic question is ... "who is wrong?" The original receivers of the Tanakh or the Christians who added it to the New Testament interpreting it?

Being Christian Protestant I stand with Christians ... but Jews have got really good reasons to sustain something different.
According to such a logic a "Christian" like you should also reject Christ, because Christians believe that a lot of Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ, while the Jews entirely disagree with that, and see nothing of that kind there.
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
26,872
Italy, Lago Maggiore
#42
According to such a logic a "Christian" like you should also reject Christ, because Christians believe that a lot of Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled in the person of Jesus Christ, while the Jews entirely disagree with that, and see nothing of that kind there.
Do you expect Jews to sustain something different?

Next early May Italians will celebrate the independence of Israel making the "Giro" start from Jerusalem. And Italians are Catholic ... I'm a not "regular" Italian about this.

Once I had occasion to discuss with a Rabbi about the existence of 3 different Abrahamic religions. He commented "if G-d wanted only one Abrahamic religion ... why are there 3 different Abrahamic religions on this planet?".

Great question ...
 

Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,941
Romania
#43
Speaking of Genesis, there we find God breathed his breath of life into Adam, thus giving him life. The breath of God is associated with the Spirit of God. There is also a psalm that says something to the effect, You breath your breath into them and they are given life. You withhold Your breath and they perish.
The Son is the hypostatic Word of God, and the Holy Spirit is the hypostatic Breath of God. From St. Gregory of Nyssa's The Great Catechism, IV:
But should it be the Jew who gainsays these arguments, our discussion with him will no longer present equal difficulty [ i.e. as with the Greek], since the truth will be made manifest out of those doctrines on which he has been brought up. For that there is a Word of God, and a Spirit of God, powers essentially subsisting, both creative of whatever has come into being, and comprehensive of things that exist, is shown in the clearest light out of the Divinely-inspired Scriptures. It is enough if we call to mind one testimony, and leave the discovery of more to those who are inclined to take the trouble. "By the Word of the Lord," it is said, "the heavens were established, and all the power of them by the breath of His mouth [Psalm 33:6]." What word and what breath? For the Word is not mere speech, nor that breath mere breathing. Would not the Deity be brought down to the level of the likeness of our human nature, were it held as a doctrine that the Maker of the universe used such word and such breath as this? What power arising from speech or breathing could there be of such a kind as would suffice for the establishment of the heavens and the powers that are therein? For if the Word of God is like our speech, and His Breath is like our breath, then from these like things there must certainly come a likeness of power; and the Word of God has just so much force as our word, and no more. But the words that come from us and the breath that accompanies their utterance are ineffective and unsubstantial. Thus, they who would bring down the Deity to a similarity with the word as with us render also the Divine word and spirit altogether ineffective and unsubstantial. But if, as David says, "By the Word of the Lord were the heavens established, and their powers had their framing by His breath," then has the mystery of the truth been confirmed, which instructs us to speak of a word as in essential being, and a breath as in personality.
 

Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,941
Romania
#44
Do you expect Jews to sustain something different?

Next early May Italians will celebrate the independence of Israel making the "Giro" start from Jerusalem. And Italians are Catholic ... I'm a not "regular" Italian about this.

Once I had occasion to discuss with a Rabbi about the existence of 3 different Abrahamic religions. He commented "if G-d wanted only one Abrahamic religion ... why are there 3 different Abrahamic religions on this planet?".

Great question ...
No, I don't. There is nothing that happens without the Almighty God allowing it to happen, even the bad things are providentially allowed by the Almighty God. The fact that the Almighty God allows various religions doesn't imply that they are equally true and good. But from a Divine perspective, so speaking, it is not by pure chance that someone has a religion, or another, or none.
 
Last edited:
Jan 2010
4,439
Atlanta, Georgia USA
#45
No, I don't. There is nothing that happens without the Almighty God allowing it to happen, even the bad things are providentially allowed by the Almighty God. The fact that the Almighty God allows various religions doesn't imply that they are equally true and good. But from a Divine perspective, so speaking, it is not by pure chance that someone has a religion, or another, or none.
Amen to that!
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,354
Australia
#47
This is the view I am now beginning to lean towards. Truthfully, it all started when I was reading Genesis and the days of creation screwed me up exponentially when Adam was thrust into the picture. It logically made no sense, so I had to research and see if any theologians could explain the mishap I had found. Then I happened to find a quote where God refers "we" which led to my hunt on the Holy Trinity.

I really don't see the big deal if Jesus wasn't G-d. It doesn't change anything to me. Truthfully, growing up I didn't understand the holy trinity so always thought of G-d and Jesus separate anyhow. Also, if we limit the Holy Spirit to a person, won't this lessen its effect in terms of multitude? I don't know. Maybe I'm thinking to hard. The more I think I know something, the more confusing it gets.
It can be seen as 'symbolism' . And also throwing in some Jewish roots, or more specifically, some Jewish mysticism a la Europe of the time . ie. 'Kabbalah' and 'hermetic understandings' which influenced Christianity for some time .

First, a trinity concept is a basic part of hermetics as it is a basic part of nature / human perception. A 4th principle is 'produced' by this relationship . It is basically evident everywhere. Next, using a glyph;


The trinity concept is at the top as a 'supernal triad' , a realm of 3 'forces' , in an 'ideal' world - above the abyss ( at the black circle ) below the abyss , structure and form takes place . Think of concepts like length, depth and height , gives 4th concept of space ,.

The triad is basically 'force' and its polarity ; we could say 'charge' or 'electric current' and positive and negative , or 'Dao' for the first principle and yin and yang for the 2nd and 3rd.

Or, some type of overriding and undifferentiated principle and 'male' and female' polarities. In many systems position 2 and 3 are pairs of gods and goddesses.

In the glyph above the 'Christ center' is a product of the Supernal triad and directly manifests beneath it, its the center of the whole arrangement . Other beliefs might put 'The Prophets' there, or 'Adam' and 'Man' on the lowest sphere .

By elevating Jesus to Godhead, he has taken position 2 , the 'father' position' and pushed 2 to 1 position. The 'female' position at 3 has been taken over by 'Holy Spirit' .

I suppose then 6 is ... the Pope ? :lol: The mediator between us and heaven .

Anywayz .... this 'holy triad' idea been around yonks ! Its in Vedanta and other religions and systems .

Regarding the 'we' in Genesis; its grammatical; all sorts of words are used for 'God' for different reasons . The Above glyph also has a name of God attributed to each sphere according to the 'divine function' .

Then there is the whole history of those books and how Judaism was formed . ;)
 
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Corvidius

Ad Honorem
Jul 2017
2,995
Crows nest
#48
Hermetica, Hermes Trismegistus etc = Thoth of course, and further underpins the huge impact Egypt had on the mystical religions prevalent back in those days, and does to this day.
 

Maribat

Ad Honorem
Mar 2012
5,048
#49
Do you expect Jews to sustain something different?

Next early May Italians will celebrate the independence of Israel making the "Giro" start from Jerusalem. And Italians are Catholic ... I'm a not "regular" Italian about this.

Once I had occasion to discuss with a Rabbi about the existence of 3 different Abrahamic religions. He commented "if G-d wanted only one Abrahamic religion ... why are there 3 different Abrahamic religions on this planet?".

Great question ...

Great question would be - where did god take these three Abrahamic religions when there was not even one Abraham*?

*Abraham is a mythical not a historical figure.
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,354
Australia
#50
Hermetica, Hermes Trismegistus etc = Thoth of course, and further underpins the huge impact Egypt had on the mystical religions prevalent back in those days, and does to this day.
Indeed ! Some aspects survive into modern Christianity ..... thanks to 'Djehuti' :)
 

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