Homosexuality.

Jul 2016
9,680
USA
#91
Spartan men shaved their upper lips and I just had a hard time believing Spartan women burned their pubic hair off. Greek women all shaved their pubic regions...it's been known for a long time. Greek and Roman women all did it. Ancient pubic styling

See here's the thing...STDS and serious urinary tract infections were a part of male Greek life. Women outside of Sparta were forced to marry whomever their father chose for her. Not so in Sparta. The girls knew who were playing for the other team. And they were not friendly about it. But gay men did exist.... But women who can choose their husbands are not going to marry a man who prefers boys or isn't healthy. And Plutarch tells us that there were actually unmarried men who liked women and pursued them. I know why would a man choose a woman over a boy. Right? So the only answer is those girls lying in the dark naked (cause boys were naked too) with short hair and shaved pussies could magically turn gay men straight. As for everyone being bisexual, most women just see them as open minded gays and most of us don't care for that.
That's a terrible source. Not a source at all. You made all sorts of claims, so source the one that says Spartan girls shaved their "public hair" to attract a man.

And why do you still keep using the term Gay to describe the Spartans. That is a modern word with modern connotations, specific to a few western nations who've pushed identity politics. If anything, a Spartan might be classed as bisexual. And that's even assuming the Spartans were one of the city states that heavily practiced it, which they probably weren't.

This isn't the first thread you've made unsupported comments on this subject, I clearly remember this one. % sure in other threads individuals have schooled you on this before. There are numerous sources that while man-boy love was thought highly, it was not sexual, but more kind of platonic. One source, Aristotle even claimed the downfall of the Spartans was they weren't into men enough and thought too highly of their women.

I'd recommend you try to accept what others educate you on.
 
Sep 2014
931
Texas
#92
That's a terrible source. Not a source at all. You made all sorts of claims, so source the one that says Spartan girls shaved their "public hair" to attract a man.

And why do you still keep using the term Gay to describe the Spartans. That is a modern word with modern connotations, specific to a few western nations who've pushed identity politics. If anything, a Spartan might be classed as bisexual. And that's even assuming the Spartans were one of the city states that heavily practiced it, which they probably weren't.

This isn't the first thread you've made unsupported comments on this subject, I clearly remember this one. % sure in other threads individuals have schooled you on this before. There are numerous sources that while man-boy love was thought highly, it was not sexual, but more kind of platonic. One source, Aristotle even claimed the downfall of the Spartans was they weren't into men enough and thought too highly of their women.

I'd recommend you try to accept what others educate you on.
I first read it in a Greek history book....if you want to think it's all a lie...so be it...I will not argue with you. Too many sources. Well actually what you just wrote makes me smile. Clearly my sarcasm escapes you. I read all the ancient texts. I even have Herodotus in Greek. But on the Spartan marriage post I made I was attacked by men who pushed the belief that women cut their hair short to help the boys become straight. In ancient Greece why did Athenian and Spartan women shave their heads before marriage Was their some special meaning behind it Yeah right women had to trick men. Seriously? Are these people stupid?


No amount of arguing could convince those men that there really were men in Sparta who preferred women to boys, so I decided to go with it. Yeah everyone was gay but magic pussies turned them straight. As for schooling me. I Know more about Sparta than most of the so called scholars. Just because I'm a woman doesn't mean having a penis makes anyone smarter. You want to know something funny. the first I head of shaved public regions was in a novel called the Spartan when I was in highschool a long time ago. Unfortunately there are a million books entitled the Spartan and I can't find it. But it was common for wealthy women in Greece to shave themselves down there. Kept the bugs away.
History Undressed: Historical Methods of Hair Removal

A Detailed History of Hair Removal - No More Body Hair

So that's it. I support LGBT rights, Am I homophobic? When a gay man on yahoo says he wants to kill all women and men on historum say all men are gay or bisexual and only tolerate women, it makes me angry, but rather than yell at them, I go with it. Yeah Spartan women made gay men straight....can you imagine their surprise when Alaric came along and they discovered men who actually liked women? Did you check out the guy who compared Briseis to a dog?
 
Jul 2016
9,680
USA
#93
I first read it in a Greek history book....if you want to think it's all a lie...so be it...I will not argue with you. Too many sources. Well actually what you just wrote makes me smile. Clearly my sarcasm escapes you. I read all the ancient texts. I even have Herodotus in Greek. But on the Spartan marriage post I made I was attacked by men who pushed the belief that women cut their hair short to help the boys become straight. In ancient Greece why did Athenian and Spartan women shave their heads before marriage Was their some special meaning behind it Yeah right women had to trick men. Seriously? Are these people stupid?
Did you ever wonder if it wasn't done for practical reasons? That sometimes there are really stupid reasons for doing things? That it could have been done because the same people were also renowned to not fight a war, even for super justified reasons, because of an annual religious festival, and that they might also be superstitious enough to be doing a pointless tradition associated with an odd courtship ceremony, one of many Spartans possessed that makes all outsiders scratch their heads?

Wow, it never actually dawned on you that in other cultures people don't meet their future mates, date, get engaged, get married, and live their lives together the same as how you are familiar with. Weird .
 
Sep 2014
931
Texas
#94
Did you ever wonder if it wasn't done for practical reasons? That sometimes there are really stupid reasons for doing things? That it could have been done because the same people were also renowned to not fight a war, even for super justified reasons, because of an annual religious festival, and that they might also be superstitious enough to be doing a pointless tradition associated with an odd courtship ceremony, one of many Spartans possessed that makes all outsiders scratch their heads?

Wow, it never actually dawned on you that in other cultures people don't meet their future mates, date, get engaged, get married, and live their lives together the same as how you are familiar with. Weird .
So Plutarch was lying in his story about the girl telling the foreigner that her boyfriend tried harder than he. Panteus didn't want his newly wed wife to go with him to Egypt? Acrotatus didn't fight a war against Pyrrhus to protect Sparta and to keep his FEMALE lover.

And I wish my life had been perfect. No happy ever after here. I'm going to tell you something that has puzzled me for awhile. After the Romans took over things, the test at the shrine of Artemis where boys, teenagers, tried to steal cheeses while the priestesses beat them back with willows. If you didn't want to get hit you stayed back. During Roman times the boy was tied and sometimes beat to death. It would be within the mind set of Spartan women to hurt any man who didn't like women. Ruthless but possible since it happened.

As for the marriage ceremony. It comes from the ancient times when a man had to abduct his wife.....at first it was not nice like Castor and Polydeuces kidnapping their wives, but now we have the woman helping her husband. The hair was shorn and dedicated to Artemis, a very important deity in Sparta. It was sort of a good bye offering...it also probably kept the goddess or whatever evil spirits they believed in at bay. But it's just easier to say they did it to help the boys become straight. I don't know where you stand by your questions and your jumping all over the place, but I don't suppose that is important really.

My position is....there were straight men and women, bisexual men and women and gay men and women....the same numbers as today. I was in the military and know that young people don't turn to homosexuality because the gender they desire is not there. For guys maybe some group jacking off....I never knew women to do that. Not saying they didn't, but in the 16 years I was affiliated with the Navy I never experienced it.

Now if your issue is just with me, please note, I'm not intimidated by anyone disagreeing with me or calling me names. Hell I was thrown out of a Star Wars group for defending White men. Don't care. This is kid's play compared to some of those crazy people. And right now a guy is attacking my Timeline that was published by Dr. Mair. May know him as the guy who brought the existence of the Tocharians to the West. Very nice man.

Women look at history differently from men...no matter what flavor they are. Dr, Helen Schrader is a German historian and writer that I follow. She was the one who postulated the earthquake of 464 killed more women than men. Her argument is flawless, but so was the man who disagreed with her. I am considering both sides now.
Believe what you want. I actually prefer specifics with names and dates and faces to generalities. Everyone can generalize. I love the spartans...Acrotatus and Chilonis, Panteus and his wife, the two queens who tried to save their people and the young king who was murdered by his rival. Cleomenes III. Princess Archidamia walking into the Spartan meeting with a sword in her hand and saying she and the women of Sparta were not leaving.

Arachidamia of Sparta - Naked History

Any man would be fortunate to have a woman of this caliber love him.
 
Jul 2016
9,680
USA
#95
So Plutarch was lying in his story about the girl telling the foreigner that her boyfriend tried harder than he. Panteus didn't want his newly wed wife to go with him to Egypt? Acrotatus didn't fight a war against Pyrrhus to protect Sparta and to keep his FEMALE lover.

And I wish my life had been perfect. No happy ever after here. I'm going to tell you something that has puzzled me for awhile. After the Romans took over things, the test at the shrine of Artemis where boys, teenagers, tried to steal cheeses while the priestesses beat them back with willows. If you didn't want to get hit you stayed back. During Roman times the boy was tied and sometimes beat to death. It would be within the mind set of Spartan women to hurt any man who didn't like women. Ruthless but possible since it happened.

As for the marriage ceremony. It comes from the ancient times when a man had to abduct his wife.....at first it was not nice like Castor and Polydeuces kidnapping their wives, but now we have the woman helping her husband. The hair was shorn and dedicated to Artemis, a very important deity in Sparta. It was sort of a good bye offering...it also probably kept the goddess or whatever evil spirits they believed in at bay. But it's just easier to say they did it to help the boys become straight. I don't know where you stand by your questions and your jumping all over the place, but I don't suppose that is important really.

My position is....there were straight men and women, bisexual men and women and gay men and women....the same numbers as today. I was in the military and know that young people don't turn to homosexuality because the gender they desire is not there. For guys maybe some group jacking off....I never knew women to do that. Not saying they didn't, but in the 16 years I was affiliated with the Navy I never experienced it.

Now if your issue is just with me, please note, I'm not intimidated by anyone disagreeing with me or calling me names. Hell I was thrown out of a Star Wars group for defending White men. Don't care. This is kid's play compared to some of those crazy people. And right now a guy is attacking my Timeline that was published by Dr. Mair. May know him as the guy who brought the existence of the Tocharians to the West. Very nice man.

Women look at history differently from men...no matter what flavor they are. Dr, Helen Schrader is a German historian and writer that I follow. She was the one who postulated the earthquake of 464 killed more women than men. Her argument is flawless, but so was the man who disagreed with her. I am considering both sides now.
Believe what you want. I actually prefer specifics with names and dates and faces to generalities. Everyone can generalize. I love the spartans...Acrotatus and Chilonis, Panteus and his wife, the two queens who tried to save their people and the young king who was murdered by his rival. Cleomenes III. Princess Archidamia walking into the Spartan meeting with a sword in her hand and saying she and the women of Sparta were not leaving.

Arachidamia of Sparta - Naked History

Any man would be fortunate to have a woman of this caliber love him.
You're completely all over the place. You're discussing Archaic Sparta, jumping to Hellenic period, then over to Rome at some unspecified period. I just don't get it.

Greeks did weird stuff because it was 2,500 years ago, and it was Greece. The Spartans were some the weirdest people in history, they were extremists in most things even in their own time. Who cares why the original custom was for the girl to dress like the boy. For all we know it has zero to do with attraction, the original story is probably so much simpler. How about this, it takes 5 seconds to concoct: the Spartan peer wanting to get married, where is he living? Not home, he's living in what are essentially barracks. The tradition is he kidnaps his bride. Okay, now where does he go afterwards to consummate the theft? A beautiful glen like in Braveheart? Or just back to the barracks. And if you served in the military, how do servicemen smuggle females into the barracks? There are many ways, but one is to bring them a uniform and dress them up, so the Duty Officer, Petty Officer, whatever doesn't catch them. Maybe that was why the tradition started with the girl dressing as a boy, she had to fit in at a place where a girl doesn't belong, but authority figures turn a blind eye with girls in disguise because they know its the tradition.

Now this version is only slightly different and more in depth than the historical explanations. And it makes complete sense. If some tiny part of the story can be altered so little and the story suddenly makes all the sense in the world, then it really wasn't that outrageous in the first place.

Remember, these are people, who multiple times, decided not to deploy combat forces in a major war, the invasion of Greece by the Persians, because it was the Carneia. Think about how nuts that is, that a culture that absolutely is infatuated with warfare and warrior lifestyle risked major potential losses at Marathon and Thermopylae just because of a religious festival. People that do that are nuts. Nutty people have other weird ass customs that don't always make sense.

For that matter, why do guys from Bhutan practice "Night hunting" as well? Why are they breaking into homes and essentially committing sexual assault often against completely unwilling girls and its part of their custom? How the hell did that start? Who cares. They do it because they're not you. Or me.
 
Mar 2012
2,351
#96
.

Beyond that- Both Greeks and Romans thought that having sex exclusively with other males was super weird and potentially humiliating.
that is- for them sexuality was less about the gender or even species of what you were screwing... it was about the distinction between the Penetrator and the penetrated. Adult males were penetrators- and both cultures saw that as manly whether you were penetrating a boy or a girl or a melon.- by the same token, they saw being penetrated as the feminine- and women were not the equals of men. not Physically, and not socially. So any Man who wanted to be penetrated was seen as unmanly.

This is why the graffiti In Rome that accused Caesar of being the "Bride" of his entire legion was a canard aimed at Caesar- Not at the legion that purportedly penetrated him.

There is ZERO evidence that the Ancients had ANY of our puritan hangups over sex.

IN Both societies- BOYS were the preferred targets of male on male sexuality- because before they grow a beard- boys appear to be more feminine in appearance. They are not expected to Be penetrators until they have adult male attributes.
Because virginity was prized and women in both cultures led fairly cloistered lives Young men in ancient Greece and Rome had very little access to women for sex- and so they turned to the Boys for sex as Substitutes for women.

.
I can only repeat: homosexuality, with men or boys, as the active or passive partner, was explicitly illegal in Rome, and the penalty in the legions is death. Every Roman author, every single one of them, decries homosexuality and paints the villains of Roman history as homosexuals.

All that you show is that you have never actually read any real Roman sources, and are believing uncritically what you have seen in movies, or perhaps learned from a history instructor who has also not read the sources.

From Cicero condemning Caesar, Cataline and Clodius for homosexual practices (Cataline active and passive explicitly) in his speeches, to Polybius telling us that the penalty for homosexuality in the legions was death by beating, to Tactius telling us of formal charges being brought against Agrippina's son for homosexuality, for Dio recording that Octavian told his troops that Antony was weak because he had become a homosexual, to Dio apologizing for Trajan's pederasty, to the Augustine scribe talking about Hadrian's problematic homosexual relationships, to the long passage in Apuleius in which the main character is forced to watch homosexual acts and succeeds in getting a homosexual cult run out of town, to Amminus telling us of pederastic practices amongst the Germans which he considered vile, to Plutarch telling us about a soldier who honorably killed his officer (!) for homosexual advances, to Suetonius and Tacitus painting Caligula, Nero, Tiberius, Heliogalbus, and Commodus, the great villains of Roman history, as homosexual or bi-sexual, whereas deified Augustus and deified Claudius were said to be too much in love with their woman.

These are all things that I learned first hand from actually reading the sources. And I remembered them well, because they were shocking to me--I had heard the same nonsense as you.

In the now hundreds of thousands of pages of Roman history and literature that I have read, do you want to know how many positive references to homosexuality I have come across?

Zero. Not one. The closest I can think of was that reference where Dio said that whereas it was a fault that Trajan loved boys, at least he harmed no one in the pursuit.

Yes, it happened. Polybius would not have spent several pages decrying the "vile Greek custom" if no Roman did it, but it was never acceptable. Similar to how people might to drugs in our society and get away with it, but it is not legal, or something you admit in polite company.

Sorry. You can call me a homophobe if you like, but that IS the truth. And it does ruffle my feathers a bit when someone comes into a thread they have not read through and repeats things that have already been thoroughly refuted. The Romans did have some of these "hang ups," and that is the truth.

By the way, so did the Spartans. Go ahead and find yourself the quotes by Plutarch, Plato, and Xenophon, who commanded Spartan troops in battle and sponsored his sons through the agoge.
 
Likes: aggienation

Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
5,635
#97
So Plutarch was lying in his story about the girl telling the foreigner that her boyfriend tried harder than he. Panteus didn't want his newly wed wife to go with him to Egypt? Acrotatus didn't fight a war against Pyrrhus to protect Sparta and to keep his FEMALE lover.
Plutarch was in his own time famous for in particular two view considered freakishly weird by his contemporary Greeks:

1) That you could be a great philosopher while still living in a Boiotian one-horse-town.

2) That a man's best friend and confidant could be hos wife.

The key to assessing the role and place of Greek homo-erotic man-on-man action really is to look at the position of women in Greek society. That, and the slaves. Equality was an inherently tricky concept to the Greeks.
(Not that they didn't have. It's just the equality had to be constantly performed and proven through competition, and one of the main points of all that competition was to prove who was inferior. And women and slaves by definition could not even begin to compete.)
 
Sep 2014
931
Texas
#98
You're completely all over the place. You're discussing Archaic Sparta, jumping to Hellenic period, then over to Rome at some unspecified period. I just don't get it.

Greeks did weird stuff because it was 2,500 years ago, and it was Greece. The Spartans were some the weirdest people in history, they were extremists in most things even in their own time. Who cares why the original custom was for the girl to dress like the boy. For all we know it has zero to do with attraction, the original story is probably so much simpler. How about this, it takes 5 seconds to concoct: the Spartan peer wanting to get married, where is he living? Not home, he's living in what are essentially barracks. The tradition is he kidnaps his bride. Okay, now where does he go afterwards to consummate the theft? A beautiful glen like in Braveheart? Or just back to the barracks. And if you served in the military, how do servicemen smuggle females into the barracks? There are many ways, but one is to bring them a uniform and dress them up, so the Duty Officer, Petty Officer, whatever doesn't catch them. Maybe that was why the tradition started with the girl dressing as a boy, she had to fit in at a place where a girl doesn't belong, but authority figures turn a blind eye with girls in disguise because they know its the tradition.

Now this version is only slightly different and more in depth than the historical explanations. And it makes complete sense. If some tiny part of the story can be altered so little and the story suddenly makes all the sense in the world, then it really wasn't that outrageous in the first place.

Remember, these are people, who multiple times, decided not to deploy combat forces in a major war, the invasion of Greece by the Persians, because it was the Carneia. Think about how nuts that is, that a culture that absolutely is infatuated with warfare and warrior lifestyle risked major potential losses at Marathon and Thermopylae just because of a religious festival. People that do that are nuts. Nutty people have other weird ass customs that don't always make sense.

For that matter, why do guys from Bhutan practice "Night hunting" as well? Why are they breaking into homes and essentially committing sexual assault often against completely unwilling girls and its part of their custom? How the hell did that start? Who cares. They do it because they're not you. Or me.
you're one who wanted proof woman shaved....now you're mad because I gave you the history of it. You're right, people do weird **** but that does not make it right. Isis throws gay men off roofs and I don't think it's right, but I keep my righteous indignation for the Yazidi women. I intend to hold every man from the beginning of time in contempt of their abusive ways. I also hold the Bible to these same standards. Men who disrespect or abuse women need to be held in contempt....and I hold women even more accountable who abuse men. I expect more out of women. And I will look into this night hunting that you mention.
 
Sep 2014
931
Texas
#99
Plutarch was in his own time famous for in particular two view considered freakishly weird by his contemporary Greeks:

1) That you could be a great philosopher while still living in a Boiotian one-horse-town.

2) That a man's best friend and confidant could be hos wife.

The key to assessing the role and place of Greek homo-erotic man-on-man action really is to look at the position of women in Greek society. That, and the slaves. Equality was an inherently tricky concept to the Greeks.
(Not that they didn't have. It's just the equality had to be constantly performed and proven through competition, and one of the main points of all that competition was to prove who was inferior. And women and slaves by definition could not even begin to compete.)
I seriously have no problem whatsoever with gay sex. But in ancient times it included children...that is why Christianity got a foot hold in Greece. Victims suddenly had an organization defending them. Saying they were important to This God. That being forced into sexual relationships you didn't want did not make you the bad guy. Greece and Rome literally screwed their pagan ways out of existence. (I am not technically a Christian although I do like some of the things they preached in the preClovis era. After the conversion of that monster and the reign of Honorius, it went to hell in a hand bag)

And yes perhaps I shouldn't argue so hard about the women of Sparta, but the women of Sparta were magnificent, what I would hope for the women of America. Instead of fighting our men we should become partners on a tribal level.

I love Cleomenes III who was forced to marry Agis IV's young widow Agiatus. Because of her he adopted many of Agis' reforms and 4,000 Hoplites were added to the roster of Spartan soldiers. Giving back land...not his father's idea. So you made me tear up when you wrote a man's best friend could be his wife. Cleomenes lost his best ally and friend when she died.

Now I'm going to go read my Plutarch and smile.

Plutarch was an old romantic, and he made history alive to me. I was just on Wikipedia looking for Agiatis' name.....clearly the article was written by a man who suffered no such nonsensical emotions.
 
Jul 2016
9,680
USA
you're one who wanted proof woman shaved....now you're mad because I gave you the history of it. You're right, people do weird **** but that does not make it right. Isis throws gay men off roofs and I don't think it's right, but I keep my righteous indignation for the Yazidi women. I intend to hold every man from the beginning of time in contempt of their abusive ways. I also hold the Bible to these same standards. Men who disrespect or abuse women need to be held in contempt....and I hold women even more accountable who abuse men. I expect more out of women. And I will look into this night hunting that you mention.
You didn't give proof. You linked non historical websites that just said ancient people removed hair with little to no sourcing. And you've still not supported your comment that Spartan girls, known to have hairy legs, were shaving their pubic regions trying to convert gay men (which they weren't).
 

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