Homosexuality.

Mar 2012
2,289
#63
Agesilaus was the absolute paragon of all virtues according to Xenophon. His ability to suppress his desires and emotions (in all circumstances - comfort, love, judgement, food, drink, work, war, etc) is portrayed as almost superhuman. But that he desired Megabates is not frowned upon. The kiss was a symbol of honour - and it is that which he is rejecting.

In fact, Xenophon adds that Agesilaus later asked if Megabates would indeed kiss him. But when asked if he would kiss Megabates in return, he refused. His virtue in rejecting the kiss was not due to the homosexuality of Megabates or Agesilaus, but due to the self control of Agesilaus in his otherwise natural desires (of intimacy and seeking/showing honour due to personal feelings).
You simply have not read the passage. I am sorry. Sometimes wiki and these kinds of sources record things incorrectly.

The rape of Cassandra brought a curse because it had occurred to a priestess in a temple to Athena. The violation of the temple through sex was the cause, not the actual type of sex involved. For example, Medusa had sex with Poseidon in a temple to Athena and she was cursed because of the sexual act - not because it was rape.

Cruesa's lament is not about her rape, but the loss of her child. She believes herself childless because she abandoned her child and believes he is now dead, laments the implications that this has on her life, and blames Apollo. The plot leads to the praise of Apollo for looking after his son all along, and reuniting him with his mother. The rape is not the original focus, but has become such due to modern scholarship.

The 'abduction' of Chrysippus by Laius is (I believe) never referred to as 'rape'. That came with modern sensationalism. Taking away the son of the household you are being entertained in without the father's permission was a breach of hospitality. That was what caused the curse, not a rape.
Again, not sure that you have ever actually read Ion. As for Lauis, what do you think that he was abducted for? The Greeks invented the concept of obscene, which literally means "off scene."

You asked for some examples of the Greeks viewing rape as bad, and I gave them. Make of them what you will.
 
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Moros

Ad Honorem
Jun 2012
3,066
#66
You simply have not read the passage. I am sorry. Sometimes wiki and these kinds of sources record things incorrectly.
I have read the whole book. I am always careful to read the sources. I have a hard copy on my shelves, and the text is freely available online. I never resort to wiki as a source, but I assume you have since you claim to know what it says on the subject. You took the passage out of context and failed to see what Xenophon was focusing upon.

Again, not sure that you have ever actually read Ion. As for Lauis, what do you think that he was abducted for? The Greeks invented the concept of obscene, which literally means "off scene."

You asked for some examples of the Greeks viewing rape as bad, and I gave them. Make of them what you will.
Again, you accuse me of not knowing my sources, with no foundation of proof. You gave me three examples of what you thought illustrated Greek attitudes to rape. Whereas once I explained the texts to you, none of them specifically condemn rape (Cassandra was violation of a sacred place; Chrysippus was never seen as rape; Creusa focused on the fate of her child).

But it was a question not directly related to the homosexual behaviour of the Greeks, so I accept that you might not have been using the texts, but instead had recourse to memories of later commentaries and summaries.

Our present sensibilities tell us rape must have been immoral, because we see it as such. In the same way you believe that modern morals project an acceptance of homosexuality onto the past. But the truth is much more complicated (as I'm sure you'll agree).
 
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Jun 2012
7,033
Malaysia
#67
The rape of Cassandra brought a curse because it had occurred to a priestess in a temple to Athena. The violation of the temple through sex was the cause, not the actual type of sex involved. For example, Medusa had sex with Poseidon in a temple to Athena and she was cursed because of the sexual act - not because it was rape.

Cruesa's lament is not about her rape, but the loss of her child. She believes herself childless because she abandoned her child and believes he is now dead, laments the implications that this has on her life, and blames Apollo. The plot leads to the praise of Apollo for looking after his son all along, and reuniting him with his mother. The rape is not the original focus, but has become such due to modern scholarship.

The 'abduction' of Chrysippus by Laius is (I believe) never referred to as 'rape'. That came with modern sensationalism. Taking away the son of the household you are being entertained in without the father's permission was a breach of hospitality. That was what caused the curse, not a rape.
What about the so called 'seduction' of Princess Europa by Zeus in the guise of a bull? Was that really a romantic seduction, or just a rape passed by romantic minded authors as 'seduction'?
 
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Dec 2015
2,512
USA
#68
What about the so called 'seduction' of Princess Europa by Zeus in the guise of a bull? Was that really a romantic seduction, or just a rape passed by romantic minded authors as 'seduction'?
I'm no heavy classicist, but I've been told that terms like "capture", "seduction", and "rape" in context of gods copulating with mortals in Greek mythology have more or less meaning the same things since it's hard to make out the intentions behind the situation. Moreover, consent of any kind wasn't really considered in a society where adult male citizens pretty much had free sexual access to almost anyone beneath their social status. If you're the king of the gods, you don't really need to ask permission or worry about punishment.
 
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Jun 2012
7,033
Malaysia
#69
^
Perhaps something like this:

Woman: 'Help!' 'Help!' 'Someone help me, please!'

Onlooker: 'Shut up, bitch, he is Zeus. Or I'll be next in line, and maybe some more others after me. Just be glad that you're still alive'.
 
Dec 2015
2,512
USA
#70
^
Perhaps something like this:

Woman: 'Help!' 'Help!' 'Someone help me, please!'

Onlooker: 'Shut up, bitch, he is Zeus. Or I'll be next in line, and maybe some more others after me. Just be glad that you're still alive'.
I mean if you Zeus was seducing your SO, what can you reasonably do about it? It was kind of the same for slaves in regards to their owners.

That said, any kind of linguistic take on the terms and actions themselves in their original Greek context might make more sense.
 

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