Homosexuality.

Mar 2012
2,289
#72
I have read the whole book. I am always careful to read the sources. I have a hard copy on my shelves, and the text is freely available online. I never resort to wiki as a source, but I assume you have since you claim to know what it says on the subject. You took the passage out of context and failed to see what Xenophon was focusing upon.



Again, you accuse me of not knowing my sources, with no foundation of proof. You gave me three examples of what you thought illustrated Greek attitudes to rape. Whereas once I explained the texts to you, none of them specifically condemn rape (Cassandra was violation of a sacred place; Chrysippus was never seen as rape; Creusa focused on the fate of her child).

But it was a question not directly related to the homosexual behaviour of the Greeks, so I accept that you might not have been using the texts, but instead had recourse to memories of later commentaries and summaries.

Our present sensibilities tell us rape must have been immoral, because we see it as such. In the same way you believe that modern morals project an acceptance of homosexuality onto the past. But the truth is much more complicated (as I'm sure you'll agree).
Guy, you have not read what you are claiming that you have read.

You gripped my bloddless wrists
Dragged me, shreiking for help, into the cave
Bore me to the ground-a god without shame or remorse!-
And had your will- for the honor of Aphrodite

Did you miss this passage? What part of this is not showing the cruelty of rape?

I will leave you to figure out how similary confused you are about the other things I cited. I do not appreciate it when people claim that they have read works when they clearly have not.

As for your point about homosexuality, I don't even know what you are on about, and you are showing that you have not even read through the thread. I have told you what specific civilizations and individuals thought of homosexuailty BASED ON WHAT THE ANCIENT AUTHORS THEMSELVES SAID. What SPECIFICALLY are you asking clarification on?
 
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Moros

Ad Honorem
Jun 2012
3,066
#73
Guy, you have not read what you are claiming that you have read.

You gripped my bloddless wrists
Dragged me, shreiking for help, into the cave
Bore me to the ground-a god without shame or remorse!-
And had your will- for the honor of Aphrodite

Did you miss this passage? What part of this is not showing the cruelty of rape?
Maybe you miss out the context. Creusa is more concerned about Apollo not looking after her son.

"My husband has turned traitor!
I have no home now, no child; no hope left now"


"I bore you a son; and in dread of my mother's eye,
With many tears I laid him
On the same cruel bed where you ravished me.
Where is he now, our little child?
Torn and devoured! - and why should you
Lay down your bragging lyre, or stop your song?
Listen to me Apollo, seated at the earth's centre,
Dispensing oracles from your golden throne -
I shout it in your ear; vile betrayer!
My husband never did you service,
Yet you give him a son to inherit his house,
While my child - yes and yours - like a beast you leave to die.
To be torn by vultures from the crib where his mother laid him."

[Euripes; Ion, 864-66; 892-906]

Cruesa's tirade against Apollo is not about his rape of her, but about how he abandoned their child and now (in the play) grants Xuthus, her husband, a child, thus denying her any status in the future household. The plot of the play reconciles with Apollo revealing that the son he is granting Xuthus is in fact the son of Creusa, and everyone is happy. The rape just happens to be the way the child is born. It is not the root of Creusa's anger, nor a theme in the play.

I never said the rape wasn't cruel. But it is clear the play is far more focused on the responsibility of parenthood, then on the wrongness of the rape.
 
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Moros

Ad Honorem
Jun 2012
3,066
#74
I will leave you to figure out how similary confused you are about the other things I cited. I do not appreciate it when people claim that they have read works when they clearly have not.
I am quite sure on what I have read, and on how your 'other things' do not support what you think they do (Chrysippus is not called rape, and Cassandra is about violation of the temple, not of her).

I'm glad we agree that reading is very important to understanding. I'm sure we'll enjoy reading each other's contributions in the future.
 
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Moros

Ad Honorem
Jun 2012
3,066
#75
As for your point about homosexuality, I don't even know what you are on about, and you are showing that you have not even read through the thread. I have told you what specific civilizations and individuals thought of homosexuailty BASED ON WHAT THE ANCIENT AUTHORS THEMSELVES SAID. What SPECIFICALLY are you asking clarification on?
I have read through the thread, and seen the bias on both sides. The 'rape' examples you gave show how modern assumptions can be projected onto the past, and illustrate how such a bias can exist even in those who claim to be aware of it.
 
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Mar 2012
2,289
#77
Maybe you miss out the context. Creusa is more concerned about Apollo not looking after her son.

"My husband has turned traitor!
I have no home now, no child; no hope left now"

"I bore you a son; and in dread of my mother's eye,
With many tears I laid him
On the same cruel bed where you ravished me.
Where is he now, our little child?
Torn and devoured! - and why should you
Lay down your bragging lyre, or stop your song?
Listen to me Apollo, seated at the earth's centre,
Dispensing oracles from your golden throne -
I shout it in your ear; vile betrayer!
My husband never did you service,
Yet you give him a son to inherit his house,
While my child - yes and yours - like a beast you leave to die.
To be torn by vultures from the crib where his mother laid him."
[Euripes; Ion, 864-66; 892-906]

Cruesa's tirade against Apollo is not about his rape of her, but about how he abandoned their child and now (in the play) grants Xuthus, her husband, a child, thus denying her any status in the future household. The plot of the play reconciles with Apollo revealing that the son he is granting Xuthus is in fact the son of Creusa, and everyone is happy. The rape just happens to be the way the child is born. It is not the root of Creusa's anger, nor a theme in the play.

I never said the rape wasn't cruel. But it is clear the play is far more focused on the responsibility of parenthood, then on the wrongness of the rape.
Guy, after this post, I am done with you.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with what she was "more concerned with." It is an obvious and indisputable example of rape being looked at as a bad thing in Greek culture. That is the issue. Nobody cares what she was "more concerned with." You are inventing caveats that do not matter.

Look, just believe whatever you like. As for the main topic, I have thoroughly sourced everything, and if anyone else wants to challenge anything that I have said, I am still around.
 
Jul 2016
7,353
USA
#78
Guy, after this post, I am done with you.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with what she was "more concerned with." It is an obvious and indisputable example of rape being looked at as a bad thing in Greek culture. That is the issue. Nobody cares what she was "more concerned with." You are inventing caveats that do not matter.

Look, just believe whatever you like. As for the main topic, I have thoroughly sourced everything, and if anyone else wants to challenge anything that I have said, I am still around.
Moro is right, the obvious context of that was that she was angry that Apollo abandoned her and let their son die, when he had the power to protect him. Not at all about rape.

And does ravishing only mean rape? Because from my understanding the word in English also means highly intense sex.
 
Mar 2012
2,289
#79
Moro is right, the obvious context of that was that she was angry that Apollo abandoned her and let their son die, when he had the power to protect him. Not at all about rape.

And does ravishing only mean rape? Because from my understanding the word in English also means highly intense sex.
The lines are obviously about rape. This is denial.
 
Jul 2016
7,353
USA
#80
The lines are obviously about rape. This is denial.
No. A single line is about something that might be rape, but might also not be, and in the context of that poem its simply a descriptor of how the child (which is the subject) was conceived. The rest of the lines (plural) are about a women lamenting and wanting to know why Apollo allowed their son to die.

If you have another example of rape, surely bring it. Otherwise its you guilty of denial.
 

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