Hong Kong protests thread

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Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
5,576
Are you telling me that violent events such as the stabbing of 2008 in Xinjiang did not happen? Because no Uighur I've talked to or even the western media denied that. Or is that not extremism to you?
I also take western media on such issues with an equal grain of salt for the obvious reasons Hackneyedscribe mentioned.
If you wish I can tell you that rule-of-law does not apply in China. As a general statement of fact. The implications of that are massive, and China would need to adress it well before any discussion of democracy or anything like that even appeared on a horizon. It also has direct implications for what's going on in Hongkong.
 
Mar 2012
4,405
If you wish I can tell you that rule-of-law does not apply in China. As a general statement of fact. The implications of that are massive, and China would need to adress it well before any discussion of democracy or anything like that even appeared on a horizon. It also has direct implications for what's going on in Hongkong.
That has nothing to do with what I responded to, which is the fact that there are in fact extremists who caused unrest and the PRC responded to them. That the PRC acted irrationally and oppressively is not where the disagreement lies. The Hong Kong protest is about opposition to the extradition law. The recent protest is still about the law being dormant, and the police brutality not being punished. Pictures of why they are protesting are all over the internet:
https://img.jakpost.net/c/2019/06/0...k8FiyOrsYaz7uVaVA2Oy8JdzBg3aibOEY6NX8qisLyE7g
If you think these protests are mainly about democratic reforms, please show me pictorial evidence of that.
 
Aug 2014
4,588
Australia
If Carrie Lam leaved the office things will be better ... This is sure.
The extradition bill is dormant but has yet to be properly withdrawn. She has been asked multiple times at several press conferences about whether she has the autonomy to withdraw the extradition bill and has refused to answer. The implication is that she can't act without the express permission from Beijing, which supports the claim that she is nothing but a Chinese puppet.
 
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Feb 2011
6,454
So if she doesn't have complete power over the extradition bill it means nobody else in Hong Kong shares that power, it only means Beijing has total power? And if Carrie Lam do have the autonomy to withdraw the bill, are you saying she would definitely say 'yes' to the trick question? By trick question, the question is basically: Do you admit to being too proud to admit your mistakes, OR are you a puppet? These types of 'yes/no' questions are loaded questions, like "this task is incomplete, are you stupid or just lazy?". You only have two choices, just pick one.
 
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Aug 2014
4,588
Australia
Right now it doesn't matter what the reality is. The perception is that she is a Chinese stooge and she is losing more and more influence every day. Best option is to pick a protester willing to talk and invite the press in to cover the negotiations.
 

Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
5,576
Right now it doesn't matter what the reality is. The perception is that she is a Chinese stooge and she is losing more and more influence every day. Best option is to pick a protester willing to talk and invite the press in to cover the negotiations.
Finding someone willing to expose himself as THE "spokesperson" seems part of the problem, given the treatment of previous such. People are angry, and still willing to take to the streets, but there's not really anyone to talk to about it on the protesters behalf.

It's part of the problem of politics that simply do not accept the legitimacy of a formal opposition, i.e. a political alternative to their own that can be regarded as at least reasonably as legitimate. There is no legitimate opposition, so asking someone to step up to act as if there was is likely going to be problematic. Everyone knows what kind if exposure that entails. It highlights the problem that IF you want to negotiate any kind of settlement you really need to be careful about acknowledging and cultivating precisely a legitimate opposition, including leaders that you on some level respect. If you have any kind if maximalist winner-takes-all, no-political-alternatives accepted system, you're not expecting to negotiate anyway.
 
Mar 2016
348
Miserable place
China can and will handle its own affairs just like Russia in Crimea. The west’s opinion on HK raises eyebrows inherently. They we’re on to something when they mention west imperialism, it’s too bad China is in a different league now, especially being an allied country, a far cry from the boxer days but a good internet talk all the same.
 

Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
5,576
China can and will handle its own affairs just like Russia in Crimea. The west’s opinion on HK raises eyebrows inherently. They we’re on to something when they mention west imperialism, it’s too bad China is in a different league now, especially being an allied country, a far cry from the boxer days but a good internet talk all the same.
None of which will solve China's problem with the protests in Hongkong. Or the Russian government's current similar problems.
 
Nov 2016
888
Germany
Perhaps the legal situation should be discussed in more detail. There is Article 45 of the Basic Law of Hong Kong, which says:

The Chief Executive of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region shall be selected by election or through consultations held locally and be appointed by the Central People's Government.
(...)
The method for selecting the Chief Executive shall be specified in the light of the actual situation in the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region and in accordance with the principle of gradual and orderly progress. The ultimate aim is the selection of the Chief Executive by universal suffrage upon nomination by a broadly representative nominating committee in accordance with democratic procedures.


The timetable for the final introduction of universal suffrage independent of Beijing is controversial. The democratic movement in HK wants to achieve this as quickly as possible, while Beijing would prefer to leave the promised reform forever on paper. From 2007 onwards, the demand for universal suffrage in Hong Kong's Chief Executive elections intensified. In 2014 Beijing attempted to meet this demand with a paradoxical regulation: instead of the Chief Executive being elected by a 1,200-member election committee, all Hong Kong citizens eligible to vote should be able to elect the Chief Executive directly in 2017, but only from a pool of 2-3 nominated candidates, who will continue to be elected by the 1,200-member committee as before. The catch on the matter is that the committee is traditionally largely Beijing dependent and would have nominated only Beijing dependent candidates. The regulation was rejected by the Hong Kong Legislative Council. Therefore, in 2017, the 1,200 member election committee had to elect the chief executive from a pool of 3 nominated candidates. The democratically minded John Tsang, although more popular among the population than Beijing loyal Carrie Lam, lagged behind her in votes, precisely because the committee itself is largely loyal to Beijing.

The situation in the Legislative Council, the formal parliament of Hong Kong (70 seats), is similarly problematic. The democratic opposition has only 25 seats, while the others are held by loyals to Beijing (43) and 1 independent. One seat is vacant. The Hong Kong democratic movement calls for a fully democratic election of members of the Legislative Council, however, the procedure is only semi-democratic, 35 are elected by the people, while the others come from professional associations and district councils. The Council has hardly any power towards the government that is not accountable to it. The president of the Council has a veto right against decisions of the members. At present Andrew Leung has the position of president into which he was hoisted by the Beijing loyal group of the Council.
 
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AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
26,622
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Politically China and Hong Kong are not compatible. This is evident: the Chinese system is based on the existence of The Party. Only one party counts in Chinese parliament [the Popular Assembly sees several parties, but it simply ratifies the decisions taken by the Communist Party which counts 2,119 members on 2,980 and the rest of the representatives, in the united front, are legally authorized by the Communist Party!]. That's not Western democracy [here it happens that the majority party changes ...]. It can be a kind of democracy if the party wouldn't impose its candidate to the people [in Ancient Athens there weren't "parties" like we intend them nowadays, but technically that was a democracy]. But Hong Kong, as former British colony, has got a culture which aims to a Western democracy [that is to say that citizens expect that the party at the government changes ... today Communist, tomorrow Socialist, then Liberal, then Conservative ... may be again Socialist, and so on ...].

So, personally, in a future perspective, I honestly don't see how the two systems can cohabit.

And clearly, considering the economical importance of Hong Kong [with the 5th/4th stock exchange in the world and with a port which is one of the doors of China] I tend to think that Beijing will try and get more and more direct and/or indirect control on the political system of Hong Kong. Overall in this economically sensitive moment ...
 
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