How come Spain's colonies didn't do so well but Britain's colonies did well?

betgo

Ad Honorem
Jul 2011
6,768
Only New England was settled by Puritans. The Anglican religion was established in most colonies. New York was originally Dutch Reformed. Pennsylvania was originally Quaker, but Quakers were a minority and the Quaker Lord Proprietors allowed in Scotch Presbyterians and German Lutherans and Anabaptists who were not welcome in other colonies. Maryland was originally Roman Catholic, but Catholics also became a minority there, and that religion was somewhat suppressed there after 1688. It wasn't like in Spain, but England used what became the US to get rid of various religious minorities. The Peace of Westphalia resulted in the rule that the people in Germany should take the religion of the prince, which is not religious freedom as we understand it.

The British did not exterminate the population of India or try very hard to change its religions. The Spanish likewise did not exterminate the large agricultural populations of the Aztec and Inca Empires. In the US as the Carribean, there were mostly neolithic peoples who were mostly killed off by European diseases. To a large extent the native population was absorbed into the white and black (slave) populations.

I agree what happened to the natives of the US was particularly bad and to those of Australia even worse. I can see the Spanish argument that this was worse than what happened in Spanish territory. However, it sort of echos the "Black Legend" from the 15th century that the evil Papist killed off the natives of the Caribean. Now Martin argues that British and US heretics killed off natives.

It is true that the Spanish destroyed books which they considered pagan. They also melted down pagan art into bars of gold and silver. You can argue that that is not as bad as alegedly exterminating the population.
 
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martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
7,045
Spain
Sorry if people have asked it.

In how many former British colonies, the colonizers forcibly changed the existing religion to Anglicanism? How many former British colonies were allowed to keep their religion? In how many British colonies local languages still exist?

Vs: how many former Spanish colonies are not Catholic? In how many people still speak national languages?

In the Museo Antropologia in Mexico City (the Museum is a pure joy, btw), there are many unique artifacts from the pre-contact times. Including two remaining Aztec books (codices). Your walk through the halls full of amazing artifacts suddenly ends with an empty hall holding a bishop's mitre and a cross. Symbolic.

The Brits did not seek to destroy the existing cultures. They almost did not merge with the locals (or if they did, it was not approved). Maybe it was out of snobbery and colonial mentally, but the tribes they colonized are still alive, speak their native languages and practice own religions. The pre-contact cultures, ethnicities and languages were not wiped out.

The Spaniards merged with the locals, to a degree. Maybe they had no choice, but they also destroyed many local ethnicities. And they definitely destroyed native cultures and languages. Their former colonies speak Spanish, and practice Catholicism. Devotedly.

They destroyed everything local and brought the mitre, the cross and the Spanish language.

As people understand, I exclude US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand from the list of British colonies. The people who settled in the US were religious, to such a degree that neither Brittain nor Holland could tolerate them. And predictably, they did destroy the local cultures, gods and languages.

I think religious zealotry of the colonists plays grossly negative role.
Sincerely if you don´t know about subject... not talk about what you don´t know. It is clear you know nothing about Spanish Empire save some Low-budget Hollywood movies...

1st: Right... it was mandatory to be Catholic... in Flanders and in Guam... in Taiwain or in Florida.. in Rome and in Paris.
2nd: Spanish langauge never was mandatory... and never it was taught... The Spanish Schools were in native language.. my dear.. British destroyed native language... how many people speak Manhattan language in New York? I would say to you: None... Do you want to know how many people speak natvie languages in Mexico, ARIZONA, Yucatán, Darién, Costa Rica, Philiipine, Joló, Guam, Guinea, TEXAS, NUEVO MÉXICO etc etc...
We can compare what the English invasors made in Ireland... Do you know what language they imposed?... Yes and we can compare with the Spaniards in Flanders (where the language was theh Flammish), Burgundy (French), Spanish Dominions in Rhin lands (German), Sicily, lombardy, Sardinia, Naples, Tuscany, etc etc

As easy as to know the OFFICIAL RECORDS sent to the Monarchy FROM Amsterdam, Antwerpen, Jüllich, Milano,
 
Oct 2012
919
Sincerely if you don´t know about subject... not talk about what you don´t know. It is clear you know nothing about Spanish Empire save some Low-budget Hollywood movies...

1st: Right... it was mandatory to be Catholic... in Flanders and in Guam... in Taiwain or in Florida.. in Rome and in Paris.
2nd: Spanish langauge never was mandatory... and never it was taught... The Spanish Schools were in native language.. my dear.. British destroyed native language... how many people speak Manhattan language in New York? I would say to you: None... Do you want to know how many people speak natvie languages in Mexico, ARIZONA, Yucatán, Darién, Costa Rica, Philiipine, Joló, Guam, Guinea, TEXAS, NUEVO MÉXICO etc etc...
We can compare what the English invasors made in Ireland... Do you know what language they imposed?... Yes and we can compare with the Spaniards in Flanders (where the language was theh Flammish), Burgundy (French), Spanish Dominions in Rhin lands (German), Sicily, lombardy, Sardinia, Naples, Tuscany, etc etc

As easy as to know the OFFICIAL RECORDS sent to the Monarchy FROM Amsterdam, Antwerpen, Jüllich, Milano,
Serious question Martin: why did the spaniards destroy allmost all Meso-American Art,Architecture and literature why was catholism forced by the thread of violence, isnt that hooliganism?
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
7,045
Spain
Only one Ignorant from the religion and ethnicity I am not going to say it is so poor that he doesn´t know it was Spain... and the SPANISH missionaires who they studied, systematized and wrote giving them a written grammar to the native languages.




My very very ignorant friend... in this forum people really know the subject as Tulius or the Btritish John... will say to you Spanish Empire was built sooner than any nationalism.. with a nobiliarian mind, under Trastamara and Habsburg... and the Catholic Church wanted to teach the Religion in native languages.. that is the reason, my not very cultivate man (in history of Spain, of course) because not official language at all in the Spanish Empire... and that is the reason because Spanish language was not taugh till those countries were INDEPENDENT FROM THE CROWN.... under Criollos rebels.



This is a talking for people know about what´s written... boys out, please! Each NATIVE LANGUAGE was studied, systematized and written the grammar book by the Spaniards...

I hope you write here the book written by British about Manhattan grammar!!!

I can be rude and comparing British in Dublin (they imposed the English) and Spaniards in Brussels (they didn´t impose the Spanish one)... but I won´t do it. Sincerely It would be very cruel to abuse about the ignorance of people...The Spanish Empire mental structure was not matched with the 19th Century Imperialism at all.. that is the reason because Italy or Britain or France or Germany had colonies... Spain never had Colonies, but Dominions, Kingdoms, etc etc.

A free lesson for you.
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
7,045
Spain
Serious question Martin: why did the spaniards destroy allmost all Meso-American Art,Architecture and literature why was catholism forced by the thread of violence, isnt that hooliganism?
Dear Lalli,

They didn´t destroy the culture as you can see today. They destroyed the Religion but not the lenguage. Yes, the destroyed the Piramides because for them it was the symbol of Evil.
 
Oct 2012
919
Only one Ignorant from the religion and ethnicity I am not going to say it is so poor that he doesn´t know it was Spain... and the SPANISH missionaires who they studied, systematized and wrote giving them a written grammar to the native languages.




My very very ignorant friend... in this forum people really know the subject as Tulius or the Btritish John... will say to you Spanish Empire was built sooner than any nationalism.. with a nobiliarian mind, under Trastamara and Habsburg... and the Catholic Church wanted to teach the Religion in native languages.. that is the reason, my not very cultivate man (in history of Spain, of course) because not official language at all in the Spanish Empire... and that is the reason because Spanish language was not taugh till those countries were INDEPENDENT FROM THE CROWN.... under Criollos rebels.



This is a talking for people know about what´s written... boys out, please! Each NATIVE LANGUAGE was studied, systematized and written the grammar book by the Spaniards...

I hope you write here the book written by British about Manhattan grammar!!!

I can be rude and comparing British in Dublin (they imposed the English) and Spaniards in Brussels (they didn´t impose the Spanish one)... but I won´t do it. Sincerely It would be very cruel to abuse about the ignorance of people...The Spanish Empire mental structure was not matched with the 19th Century Imperialism at all.. that is the reason because Italy or Britain or France or Germany had colonies... Spain never had Colonies, but Dominions, Kingdoms, etc etc.

A free lesson for you.
Thank You for the lesson. That is why I ask questions, to get rid of my ignorance. I`m not quite sure if this helped me, but thanks anyway.
 
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martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
7,045
Spain
I agree with Mr Betgo said. It is not possible to say better.

Dear Kevin and Edric... proud of the House of Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha... it was Cronwell who said the Spaniard is the Natural enemy... not any King or Minister in the Catholic Empire. I will refresh your memory:

And the Spaniard is not only our enemy accidentally but he is providentially so God having in His wisdom disposed it so to be when we made a breach with the Spanish Nation long ago , Oliver Cromwell’s Letters and Speeches.

It was Britain and not Spain who broke the relations... and it is British Propaganda who speak in this thread from the first post. As simple as to see how many times I wrote about Britain with Ups and Downs... not as you.. that only use Propaganda. In the Zulu cwar in 1879.... I would have prefered the British than Zulus...if I had to choose... but you prefered the "nice and beloved" aztecs than the "evil" Spaniards.... right? Who knows... maybe you like the 7 yo child´s meat...

I will write a long post about the history of the Black Legend and the hispanonophobie... the origin is not in Britain and not in Protesstant... but In Italy when aragonese conquered Sicily! What´s is true.. it is British and Protestant expanded the black legend.

Another native languages grammar book written by the Spaniards....



Of course, thiis book is not for you dear Kevin and Edric.. but for the poor guy said the Spaniards imposed the Spanish language!!!! that poor guy ignored Spain is the country with more native language grammar books written for Empire days...how many books were written by Dutch? British? Yankees? Did Yankees wrote about Lakota language?

And this about Maya Language:



Regards
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
7,045
Spain
Thank You for the lesson. That is why I ask questions, to get rid of my ignorance. I`m not quite sure if this helped me, but thanks anyway.
The post was not for you. You are a polite and educate Mr I respect very much. It was for an ignorant guy said Spaniards destroyed native languages. Not you.
Please.. post was not for you.

Sincerely.
 
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Edric Streona

Ad Honorem
Feb 2016
4,562
Japan
Very hard to follow a somewhat rambling stream of conciousness..

I do not claim the Aztecs were some benign and good force. I find it very foolish to suggest that anyone’s has said that.
It was someone else that suggested the Spaniards treated Indians better than British!!!
It is irrelevant how the Aztecs acted, as I’m sure you know the Indians the English and later Americans defeated were hardly hippies living in harmony ... but warlike cultures with a fondness for torture.
But by the by... while the English killed a lot deliberately and even more accidently... fact is the English exterminated none.
Indians wiped out more Indian tribes than the English. And the Spanish purged the natives from the Caribbean. Killed far more than the English, enslaved far more and carried them off, and let more die from disease.

John Smith
William Strachey BOTH wrote dictionaries of the Powhatan language pretty much as soon as the English were attempting to colonise America.

Alexander Graham Bell - wrote a Mohawk dictionary.
Captain James King - first to records Aleut words in a language study.
So how many books did the British write? I can’t say but at least 4.
But Martins lie that the English didn’t write about Indian languages is false. They started immediately and kept doing it.

Cromwell.. sure he said Spain was a natural Enemy. But Spanish hatred of England is far older.
 
Sep 2012
1,246
Tarkington, Texas
The Manhattan were a branch of the Lenape (Delawares) and related to the Mohegan. The Mohegan have a Casino in Connecticut now.

Pruitt