How did Arabization happen among the rural illiterate non Arab Peasantry

greatstreetwarrior

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
3,939
Just a couple of centuries eh?

I wouldn't say 'even Spain' as the backgrounds to Spain and all of North Africa were quite similar - Roman, Germanic, Byzantine etc.

For info a book I'm reading currently on the Ebro region suggests full 'arabisation' was only complete around the millennium up around there. Just in time to start declining a century later!!
Yes but in two centuries substantial amount took place even if not full. For a land far away in the heart of Europe and with a very huge linguistic divergence from Arabic this was a huge achievement. I wonder why a fringe area in historic India like sindh which fell to Arabs quite early on did not arabized and Sindhi language remains to this day even among Muslims. Sindh never saw a Hindu reconquista like Spain yet it did.
 
Sep 2013
485
Colonia Iulia Augusta Faventia Barcino
Even today there are small Coptic and Syriac speaking communities in the Middle East, but everybody considers the Middle East as an Arabic-speaking area.

By the X century, Arabic had become the language of the majority of the population in al-Andalus, Christians and Muslims alike. For example, inscriptions in Christian graveyards appeared inceasingly in Arabic instead of Latin. And a century earlier in the IX century Eulogius of Córdoba bemoaned how his fellow Christians forsook the study of Latin letters for the more "fashionable" language of the "Agarenes".
 

greatstreetwarrior

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
3,939
Even today there are small Coptic and Syriac speaking communities in the Middle East, but everybody considers the Middle East as an Arabic-speaking area.

By the X century, Arabic had become the language of the majority of the population in al-Andalus, Christians and Muslims alike. For example, inscriptions in Christian graveyards appeared inceasingly in Arabic instead of Latin. And a century earlier in the IX century Eulogius of Córdoba bemoaned how his fellow Christians forsook the study of Latin letters for the more "fashionable" language of the "Agarenes".
Yeah I fail to understand how even non Semites could adopt Arabic especially the peasantry. I can get people leaving religion but language is something u express urself in. Why would you change that
 

johnincornwall

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
8,130
Cornwall
Yes but in two centuries substantial amount took place even if not full. For a land far away in the heart of Europe and with a very huge linguistic divergence from Arabic this was a huge achievement. .
I'm not disagreeing with you but for linguistic purposes there really wasn't any difference between the Western Mahgreb and Spain. Just a bit of water in between. Both were former Roman and Germanic in various combinations and 'conquered' (if sometimes nominally) in fairly quick succession.

Dont forget there were fairly substantial financial and social penalties for not being islamic, whilst without question aided the quick conversions/changes. The big sticks would come later.
 

greatstreetwarrior

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
3,939
I'm not disagreeing with you but for linguistic purposes there really wasn't any difference between the Western Mahgreb and Spain. Just a bit of water in between. Both were former Roman and Germanic in various combinations and 'conquered' (if sometimes nominally) in fairly quick succession.

Dont forget there were fairly substantial financial and social penalties for not being islamic, whilst without question aided the quick conversions/changes. The big sticks would come later.
Would people in the older days convert for money. I find it hard to believe considering how much strong religious was back then. Somehow Arab conquests were faster and more complete than all other invaders in the same areas and had lasting impact. I mean places like central asia, Afghanistan and maghreb or even Anatolia were not easy places to take. I get what u mean and I can understand religion change also but language the way basis we think and express. It is so hard to do. I mean a Greek man for over 1000years in Anatolia just adopts a barbarian Turkic language of nomads giving up his language of civilization. Hel even Mongols couldn't mongolify their lands. And they were the ultimate barbarians. There is some serious cohesive power in Islam that I can't fathom. More Muslims are ready to give up their lives even today in comparison to any other faith.
 
Aug 2013
298
Germany
Would people in the older days convert for money. I find it hard to believe considering how much strong religious was back then. Somehow Arab conquests were faster and more complete than all other invaders in the same areas and had lasting impact. I mean places like central asia, Afghanistan and maghreb or even Anatolia were not easy places to take. I get what u mean and I can understand religion change also but language the way basis we think and express. It is so hard to do. I mean a Greek man for over 1000years in Anatolia just adopts a barbarian Turkic language of nomads giving up his language of civilization. Hel even Mongols couldn't mongolify their lands. And they were the ultimate barbarians. There is some serious cohesive power in Islam that I can't fathom. More Muslims are ready to give up their lives even today in comparison to any other faith.
The main reason why people adopted the Arab language in North Africa and the Levant was because they already spoke Semitic languages and the Berber languages belong to the same language family like Arabic. Turks and Indo-Aryans never adopted the Arabic language because their tongue was too disimilar to Arabic

Seljuks were nomads only in the beginning. The Sultanate of Rum was culturally Persianized, founded universities and had a unique architecture. Furthermore Greek identity and language became highly associated with Christianity just like Turkish identity and language became highly associated with Islam. Greeks converting to Islam were also Turkicized because Islam and Turkish identity were inseparable in the Sultanate of Rum and Ottoman empire.

The reason why Mongols didn't have such a cultural impact like Turks was because they couldn't associate their identity with Islam unlike Turks. They became Turkicized or Persianized. Buddhism seems to be an exception because Mongols are mostly Buddhist today
 
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greatstreetwarrior

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
3,939
The main reason why people adopted the Arab language in North Africa and the Levant was because they already spoke Semitic languages and the Berber languages belong to the same language family like Arabic. Turks and Indo-Aryans never adopted the Arabic language because their tongue was too disimilar to Arabic

Seljuks were nomads only in the beginning. The Sultanate of Rum was culturally Persianized, founded universities and had a unique architecture. Furthermore Greek identity and language became highly associated with Christianity just like Turkish identity and language became highly associated with Islam. Greeks converting to Islam were also Turkicized because Islam and Turkish identity were inseparable in the Sultanate of Rum and Ottoman empire.

The reason why Mongols didn't have such a cultural impact like Turks was because they couldn't associate their identity with Islam unlike Turks. They became Turkicized or Persianized. Buddhism seems to be an exception because Mongols are mostly Buddhist today
I don't think there are Semitic languages spoken in Africa except the languages of Ethiopia. Egypt was the border of Semitic tongues. Coptic was not Semitic and most definitely there was nothing Semitic among Berbers and probably more Roman or Hellenic. Levant of course u can say was Semitic and I can hence understand arabization of Aramaic speakers but here again what surprises me is how did Arabs in that case not aramize during pre Islamic times. Considering xtianity and Judaism were in line with Aramaic and it was a prestige tongue similar to Arabic. I would have thought in two millennia Arabs should have aramized instead they survived Aramaic he'll even Persians adopted it to some extent yet not Arabs. Something tells me there is something more than just Islam here at play. I mean people could learn Koran in their mother tongue like Persians and Turks why adopt Arabic for it
 
Sep 2013
485
Colonia Iulia Augusta Faventia Barcino
The main language in the old Roman province of Africa and in the Iberian peninsula was Latin (or African Romance and Iberian Romance if you prefer), an Indoeuropean language. Both territories were also fairly populated, in the case of Africa and southern and eastern Spain with many old Roman towns and cities. And it was replaced by Arabic as the main language in two or three centuries.

And outside these territories, the rest of the Maghreb spoke Berber languages and Egypt was a cse of mixed Coptic and Greek usage. Neither of them are Semitic languages either.
 

johnincornwall

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
8,130
Cornwall
Would people in the older days convert for money. I find it hard to believe considering how much strong religious was back then. Somehow Arab conquests were faster and more complete than all other invaders in the same areas and had lasting impact. I mean places like central asia, Afghanistan and maghreb or even Anatolia were not easy places to take. I get what u mean and I can understand religion change also but language the way basis we think and express. It is so hard to do. I mean a Greek man for over 1000years in Anatolia just adopts a barbarian Turkic language of nomads giving up his language of civilization. Hel even Mongols couldn't mongolify their lands. And they were the ultimate barbarians. There is some serious cohesive power in Islam that I can't fathom. More Muslims are ready to give up their lives even today in comparison to any other faith.
Taxes.

Non-believers were taxed more heavily, depending on the whim of the ruler at the time and place. Even if theoretical respect for the Peoples of the Book was observed.

Also the financial aspect of being unable to obtain certain (the better) posts, much as happened in reverse centuries later.

I dont want to generalise at all but another example is a law that might make it compulsory to cross the street and get out of the way of a true believer.

All this must press on an individual - religion or family security?? Why not convert to Islam and have a quiet life with a better job? As many Goths indeed did to preserve their estates.