How did the HRE, with such a confusing, intricate and complicated system of governance last for 1000 years? [No, Voltaire quotes are not necessary]

Sep 2019
4
St Donats
What if the Holy Roman Empire is still here - the EU could be the Emperor's new clothes?

The 'British' Knights of the Garter had NINE Holy Roman Emperors and they are still active...

Holy Roman Emperor Knights of the Garter
  • Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor 1368–1437 KG #127 1415.
  • Albert V, Duke of Austria 1397–1439 KG #153 1438. Later Albert II, Holy Roman Emperor
  • Frederick III, Holy Roman Emperor 1415–1493 KG #176 1457.
  • Maximilian, King of the Romans 1459–1520 KG #239 1490. Later Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor KG #239 1489.
  • Charles, Infant of Spain, Archduke of Austria and Duke of Burgundy 1500–1558 Later Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor KG #264 1508.
  • Ferdinand, Infant of Spain, Archduke of Austria 1503–1564 Later Ferdinand I, Holy Roman Emperor KG #279 1524.
  • Maximilian II, Holy Roman Emperor 1527 to 1576 KG #351 1568.
  • Rudolf II, Holy Roman Emperor 1552–1612 KG #363 1578.
  • Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor 1768 – 1835 KG #643 1814.
Knights of the Garter Holy Roman Emperors.jpg



https://pubastrology.files.wordpres...d-order-of-the-knights-of-the-garter-v2_2.pdf

For a comprehensive list of Knights of the Garter since 1348 (approx 1014 in total) see:

List of Knights and Ladies of the Garter - Wikipedia
https://pubastrology.files.wordpres...ter-1348-to-1939-by-edmund-h-fellowes-pt1.pdf
https://pubastrology.files.wordpres...er-1348-to-1939-by-edmund-h-fellowes-pt-2.pdf


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Jun 2017
2,958
Connecticut
Exactly what the title is asking. The History of The Holy Roman Empire is an extremely confusing and intricate system of politics, how in the hell did it last for as long as it did.
Reminder; I better not see any Voltaire quotes in your responses.
Because the complexity and it being an empire in name only meant all the fiefs were happy. That's the positive side of very extreme federalism.
 

MAGolding

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
2,931
Chalfont, Pennsylvania
Because the complexity and it being an empire in name only meant all the fiefs were happy. That's the positive side of very extreme federalism.
What do you mean by saying that the Holy Roman Empire was an empire in name only?

I quote from my post number 14 on page 2 of the thread: Countries that were federations for a very long time

The Holy Roman Empire lasted for 844 years from 962 or for 1,006 years from 800, or for 1,833 years from 27 BC, or for 2,559 years from 753 BC, or possibly for some other number of years.

A government can change a lot during even a "mere" 844 years from 962 to 1806, and the Holy Roman Empire changed a lot.

Or one could say that the Holy Roman Empire was the main example of an empire existing in western European culture, or Catholic & Protestant culture, or in Latin European culture, or however the culture may be called that arose in western Europe after the western part of the Roman empire fell.

Even if the Holy Roman Empire is not considered to be the continuation of the Carolingian Empire, or of the "Byzantine" Empire, or of the original Roman Empire, or of the Roman Republic and Roman Kingdom, it still existed for 844 years. All of the other so-called empires that ever existed in the culture that arose in western Europe after the western part of the Roman Empire fell lasted for much shorter periods. Here is a list:

Empire of Romania ("Roman Land"), commonly called the Latin Empire of Constantinople (179 years from 1204-1383). It is commonly said to have lasted for only 57 years until 1261, when the Emperor's crown lands and capital were conquered by Nicaea, but the exiled emperors were acknowledged as the overlords of the remaining fiefs until 1383 after which nobody claimed the title. It was in a mostly Orthodox society, but the rulers were members of western European society.

Empire of Austria or Austrian Empire (114 years from 1804-1918), and a component of Austria-Hungary from 1867-1918.

The Carolingian Empire (88 years from 800-888, 8 years from 891-899, 4 years from 901-905, and 9 years from 915-924, or a total of about 109 years)

Empire of Brazil (67 years from 1822-1889).

German Empire (47 years from 1871-1918).

Second French Empire (18 years from 1852-1870).

First French Empire (10 years from 104-1814/15).

Second Empire of Haiti (10 Years from 1849-1859).

Second Mexican Empire (3 years from 1864-1867).

First Mexican Empire (2 years from 1821-1823).

First Empire of Haiti (2 years from 1804-1806).

So those other empires lasted for a grand total of 561 years.

And if we add the Russian Empire that lasted 196 years from 1721 to 1917 which was a majority Orthodox Christian society but was influenced by western European ideas, and the Empire of India (the British Raj) that lasted for 71 years from 1876 to 1947 and ruled over a mostly Hindu and Muslim society but was controlled by a European country, and the Central African Empire that lasted for 3 years form 1976-1979 we get a total of 831 years, 13 years fewer than the Holy Roman Empire lasted according to the minimum duration of 844 years from 962 to 1806.

Furthermore, the Holy Roman Empire was the only empire in western European society for 242 years from 962 to 1204, and again for 338 years from 1383 to 1721, a total of 580 years. Or if the Russian Empire isn't counted as an empire in western European society, there was no other empire in western European society until 1804, thus making the Holy Roman Empire the only empire in western European civilization for a total of 663 years.

So the Holy Roman Empire should be considered to be the main example of an empire in western European civilization, and thus should be the very model of an empire in western European civilization. An empire in western European civilization should be defined as either the Holy Roman Empire, or a state that resembles the Holy Roman Empire. So I think that the Holy Roman Empire should be listed as an empire or even as The Empire, the only empire.
 
Jan 2014
1,094
Rus
Exactly what the title is asking. The History of The Holy Roman Empire is an extremely confusing and intricate system of politics, how in the hell did it last for as long as it did.
Reminder; I better not see any Voltaire quotes in your responses.
British India had the same complex organization and functioned well.
 
Oct 2011
421
Croatia
Okay, I love the HRE too, but that doesnt answer my question.
Compared to other European states, it was extremely complicated, and yet it lasted longer than most kingdoms.
Im wondering how a region with an emperor, with hundreds of individual free/semi-free states (and the electorate states), countless counties and duchies, all with semi-autonomous rule managed to stay together for that long aha
Decentralization actually facilitates long-term survival, as any debilitating effect which affects part of the country does not affect other parts the way it does in a more centralized system. If you take a look at states, and social systems in general, most successful systems decentralized in the face of pressure: Western Roman Empire collapsed into feudalism (an extremely decentralized system), Eastern Roman Empire introduced thematic military system, and so on.

On that note, the Collapse of Complex Societies makes for an interesting read, though I had not actually read it yet cover-to-cover.
 
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Oct 2019
34
Budapest
Actually vassal and tributary states of the Holy Roman Empire at various times included Hungary & Croatia, Poland, Denmark (including part of southern Sweden), Cyprus, (lesser) Armenia, the eastern Roman or "Byzantine" Empire, etc. And some rather uncertain cases of lands alleged to have been vassals of the Holy Roman Empire include the Kingdom of England, English fiefs in France, and the Almohad Caliphate.
Wehn was Hungary or Croatia wassal of the HRE ?
 
Oct 2011
421
Croatia
Wrong. It seems you have basic problems of understanding the European state concepts.
For better understanding read the article:: Austro-Hungarian Compromise of 1867 - Wikipedia
You have no clue what I am talking about, do you? Croatian Parliament elected Ferdinand Habsburg for ruler in 1527. So you are off by only some 340 years.

Granted, we were technically not vassals, but rather part of, Holy Roman Empire.
 
Oct 2019
34
Budapest
You have no clue what I am talking about, do you? Croatian Parliament elected Ferdinand Habsburg for ruler in 1527. So you are off by only some 340 years.

Granted, we were technically not vassals, but rather part of, Holy Roman Empire.

Ferdinand was elected to king of Hungary by the higher aristocracy (the magnates or barons) and the Hungarian Catholic clergy in a rump Diet in Pozsony on 17 December 1526.[7]

Croatian parliament of Cetin maybe just affirmed the Hungarian parliament's decision on 1 of January, 1527


Sorry, but I can not found any info about the vassalage, maybe it exist only in your own imagination. Sure that Hungary was never been part of the HRE, there were such attempts, but the Hungarian nobility resisted against the very idea.
 
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