How many Slavs (especially Poles) emigrated from territories that became Germanized as a result of the Ostsiedlung?

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,570
Portugal
#21
[…]We are ... all of us ... chauvinistic to some extent, but social discourse and harmony can only exist when we cease to regard ourselves as the Center of the Universe ... Metaphorically speaking. Regardless of where one was born, the culture we were born into, we are a single species with only minor and insignificant differences. What seems to be a wide range of physio-types is merely Natures way of fitting us to our environments is nothing compared to what we share. Cultural differences are greatest among the ignorant, those with so little that they cling to outmoded notions of Superiority over the "Other". Historum is a place for those who want to increase their knowledge and understanding of who we, humans, are. The Internet has made it possible for global communication, and so we have Slovens, Poles, Chinese, Indian, Brits and Franks, Italians and Congolese gathering here to exchange views. Our members range from post-Doc Historians who have spent lives learning about their topic, and we have members who normally only read the sports pages.[…]
Excellent post! I didn’t quote the initial part and the final, that were addressed to only one user, but I think that the central part, here quoted, express well what an international history forum should be, and what often Historum is, and can be read by all of us.
 

Shtajerc

Ad Honorem
Jul 2014
6,698
Lower Styria, Slovenia
#22
There usually weren't any migrations of Slavs away from these areas. The lands were often populated sparsely enough to allow for the arrival of enough German settlers that they either became the majority straight away, gradually, or they influenced and germanised the Slavs from newly founded towns and cities. That was at least the case in Carantania. Except for the core parts of Carinthia (the Zollfeld and the big flst plain along the Drava river) Carniola and the flat parts of Styria, which were more densely populated by Slovenes/Carantanians, the more mountanious regions had rather few inhabitants. After Carantania was incorporated into Francia and the land was distributed to feudal lords, who held posessions in German lands as well, they tried to increase the productivity of their estates. So they moved peasents from where they had enough of them (Bavaria, Schwabia) to where they had too fee of them (Carantania). The really sparsely populated areas germanised quickly, while in the South (todays Slovenia and Southern Austria) these German settlers often got absorbed into the denser Slovene majority pretty quickly - with exceptions of course: clearing out forests in hilly regions and establishing small hamlets or solitary farms in the hills like in the Zarz/Sorica area or the big German island in the Gottschee. Sometimes the lords would even found cities with those German settlers. That's why Graz (from slo. Gradec = little castle) was called Bayrisch-Grätz at first, do distinguish it from Windisch-Grätz/Slovenj Gradec.

East Germany and Poland are mostly flat though, so I don't know it went there. These different stages of medieval colonisation in connection with what got settled first and by whom depending on how hilly the terrain is might apply to the Sudetenland as well, although I'm just making a guess here.
 
Dec 2017
801
-------
#23
You are missing the point. Be less judgmental of others merely on the basis that they are in some mysterious way different and less than you and your group. Is that clear? Continue to offend, and you'll be shown the door. Is that clear?
It's not clear. Let me tell you, you are a dick-head.
 
Jul 2012
760
Australia
#25
There usually weren't any migrations of Slavs away from these areas. The lands were often populated sparsely enough to allow for the arrival of enough German settlers that they either became the majority straight away, gradually, or they influenced and germanised the Slavs from newly founded towns and cities. That was at least the case in Carantania.

Pretty much the same around Poland.

Germans migrated to the east over a long period of time and into different political situations. At the start of the 10th century would-be Germans were still contained to the east by the Elbe. The territory beyond the Elbe was somewhat of a wild field from which nomadic raiders came from time to time. Generally the Elbe to Oder region was sparsely populated by Slavic groups with a low level of political organisation. This region was of direct interest to the Germans to develop protective mechanisms, so they were quick to extend their overlordship over the area and use it to ease the population pressures that had already built up in their traditional regions west of the Elbe. These settlements were into uncultivated areas and often into forest areas that would be cleared. German and Slavic communities could co-exist. But due to the more superior technologies and more favourable relationship to the overlords, the Germanic culture in time overshadowed the Slavic, with most likely the Slavic culture increasingly borrowing from the German until virtually assimilation took place. Only in areas where Slavic concentrations were much higher could they resist the slow processes of German assimilation - like the Sorbs (also called Lusatians; Wends) of East Germany, a small group that exists to this day, although they call themselves, and are accepted by Germans, Germans. .

Further East into Poland, Germans did not have direct influence, but nevertheless attempted to extend their influence there whenever the opportunity arose, and in whatever manner that presented itself. They were most successful in Pomerania, an area that was coveted by the new Polish state but never seemed to be able to hold and assimilate it. The March of Brandenburg projected a good deal into this territory. There was also Danish interest in this area, and later from the Teutonic Knights from the east. Here, Germans settled into their own communities which over time overshadowed their neighbours. However, the assimilation of local population did not extend as far as in the Elbe/Oder region. Successes were greater in the western areas and only in Pomerelia (West Prussia, The Polish corridor) the Slavic character predominated.

In Poland proper German migrants did not come till later, and on the invitation of local dukes looking to replace lost population from Mongol invasions and to generally accelerate economic growth through the conversion of virgin forests to arable land. Although German migrants established their own communities they were more susceptible to assimilating into the local culture. Several rural communities did survive over time where relative densities allowed. Greater successes were in towns where the urban culture was new to the local Slavic culture and the dukes were happy to grant the town German law charters. Here the German culture was to prevail. In Silesia where German migrations was high, sovereignty over the area drifted from Poland to Bohemia and remained within that sphere until the territory was lost by Austria to Prussia in the 18th century.

German political influence declined as the power of the Emperor declined in relation to the Electors, and did not arise again until the rise of Prussia as a regional power.
 

Shtajerc

Ad Honorem
Jul 2014
6,698
Lower Styria, Slovenia
#26
Pretty much the same around Poland.

Germans migrated to the east over a long period of time and into different political situations. At the start of the 10th century would-be Germans were still contained to the east by the Elbe. The territory beyond the Elbe was somewhat of a wild field from which nomadic raiders came from time to time. Generally the Elbe to Oder region was sparsely populated by Slavic groups with a low level of political organisation. This region was of direct interest to the Germans to develop protective mechanisms, so they were quick to extend their overlordship over the area and use it to ease the population pressures that had already built up in their traditional regions west of the Elbe. These settlements were into uncultivated areas and often into forest areas that would be cleared. German and Slavic communities could co-exist. But due to the more superior technologies and more favourable relationship to the overlords, the Germanic culture in time overshadowed the Slavic, with most likely the Slavic culture increasingly borrowing from the German until virtually assimilation took place. Only in areas where Slavic concentrations were much higher could they resist the slow processes of German assimilation - like the Sorbs (also called Lusatians; Wends) of East Germany, a small group that exists to this day, although they call themselves, and are accepted by Germans, Germans. .

Further East into Poland, Germans did not have direct influence, but nevertheless attempted to extend their influence there whenever the opportunity arose, and in whatever manner that presented itself. They were most successful in Pomerania, an area that was coveted by the new Polish state but never seemed to be able to hold and assimilate it. The March of Brandenburg projected a good deal into this territory. There was also Danish interest in this area, and later from the Teutonic Knights from the east. Here, Germans settled into their own communities which over time overshadowed their neighbours. However, the assimilation of local population did not extend as far as in the Elbe/Oder region. Successes were greater in the western areas and only in Pomerelia (West Prussia, The Polish corridor) the Slavic character predominated.

In Poland proper German migrants did not come till later, and on the invitation of local dukes looking to replace lost population from Mongol invasions and to generally accelerate economic growth through the conversion of virgin forests to arable land. Although German migrants established their own communities they were more susceptible to assimilating into the local culture. Several rural communities did survive over time where relative densities allowed. Greater successes were in towns where the urban culture was new to the local Slavic culture and the dukes were happy to grant the town German law charters. Here the German culture was to prevail. In Silesia where German migrations was high, sovereignty over the area drifted from Poland to Bohemia and remained within that sphere until the territory was lost by Austria to Prussia in the 18th century.

German political influence declined as the power of the Emperor declined in relation to the Electors, and did not arise again until the rise of Prussia as a regional power.
Just remembering this and not knowing all too much about it, how big was the decline in numbers of the Wends due to the Northern Crusades and enslavement? This could have been a factor that made German colobisation easier as well.
 

Rodger

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,113
US
#27
Just remembering this and not knowing all too much about it, how big was the decline in numbers of the Wends due to the Northern Crusades and enslavement? This could have been a factor that made German colobisation easier as well.
The debate about how many Slavs were displaced and how many assimilated has always been an interesting one. From what I have read more assimilated than recorded in medieval history, likely because the German medieval chroniclers, like all, tended toward hyperbole when it came to describing their conquests. The real evidence is found in dna tests, especially y-dna, which reveals the presence of Slavic ancestors to a large degree. But, alas, we cannot discuss such things here, although one can readily search the web for such information.
 
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