How Military Order Affects Social Order

athena

Ad Honorem
Jan 2010
5,032
Eugene, Oregon
Hopefully, we are aware of how male domination affects the social order of chimps and female domination affects the social order of bonobo because our social order is based on our natural impulse and circumstances.

I want to take this a step further to how military order affects our social order and culture.

I don't think the Scotts were as well disciplined as the Roman soldier. Early combat was a matter of showing off one's individual battle skills. The raiding of the wilderness tribes was not equal to wars fought be large civilizations.

The Persians had physical training for military combat, and for sure the Spartans were raised to serve the military. The Spartan phalanx formation demanded complete discipline to hold one's position and this discipline came to define all of Sparta. The phalanx shaped not only their military behavior, but their whole culture.

Our democracy evolves out of our nature of being social animals and is also shaped by the Spartan social order that is the opposite of the liberty of Athens and is directly linked to the phalanx military order. Pericles of Athens argued the superiority of Athens individuality compared to the complete economic and social control of Sparta. But to fight against the Persians Athens had to accept the Spartan idea of everyone uniting for military purpose. The landless of people of Athens fled when the enemy arrived, and they were needed to man the boats in the Persian wars, so they were offered a say in government in return for military service. However, Athens stopped short of determining everyone's needs and providing those needs as a communist state might do and as Sparta did.

How might rigid military discipline and hierarchy, affect social order and cultural norms? How was the barbarian social order and culture different? Might there be economic and social ramifications coming out of military order?
 
Aug 2016
977
US&A
Hopefully, we are aware of how male domination affects the social order of chimps and female domination affects the social order of bonobo because our social order is based on our natural impulse and circumstances.
I feel like your opening post is somewhat vaguely worded. Could you explain what you mean by natural impulse and circumstances? I agree that our social orders are probably based on human nature. Is that what you mean?

I want to take this a step further to how military order affects our social order and culture.
Again, I feel this is fairly vague. What do you mean by military order? I imagine different military orders will affect different social orders and culture in general in different ways.

I don't think the Scotts were as well disciplined as the Roman soldier. Early combat was a matter of showing off one's individual battle skills. The raiding of the wilderness tribes was not equal to wars fought be large civilizations.
Most people would feel the same. What do you mean by equal? I agree they had a culture that was very different.

The Scottish didn't exactly exist at the time. Do you mean the Picts and Gaels, or all native Britons in general?

The Persians had physical training for military combat, and for sure the Spartans were raised to serve the military. The Spartan phalanx formation demanded complete discipline to hold one's position and this discipline came to define all of Sparta. The phalanx shaped not only their military behavior, but their whole culture.
Could you define Sparta? I assume you mean the city-state, but there are distinctions between citizen Spartans and people who just happen to live there and are subject to the Spartan state.

To be precise, war, and therefore, physical dominance, determined their culture. The Phalanx was simply a tool to that end, and the Spartan city-state would commonly use many different tactics and formations. They were often seen as the best at the phalanx, but most Greek city-states at the time used the exact same formation. Other city states were often seen as better at various other formations and tactics.

Why mention the Persians specifically? They fought and existed at the same time, but how do the Persians come into this?

Our democracy evolves out of our nature of being social animals and is also shaped by the Spartan social order that is the opposite of the liberty of Athens and is directly linked to the phalanx military order.
I don't doubt that democracy, like all forms of government that have existed, comes out of humanity being social animals.

Who are you speaking about when you say "our democracy"? The members of this site come from countries around the world. Not all of them are entirely democratic. Both Sparta and Athens were arguably democratic, they both allowed male citizens to come and vote and various subjects.

The phalanx is a military formation and manner of fighting. Again, what do you mean by military order? What do military formations have to do with types of government? You understand Athens and all other city-states had phalanxes right?

What do you mean by the liberty of Athens? Women were allowed more freedom in Sparta than in Athens.
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Pericles of Athens argued the superiority of Athens individuality compared to the complete economic and social control of Sparta. But to fight against the Persians Athens had to accept the Spartan idea of everyone uniting for military purpose.
Athens had used Phalanxes before. All Greek city-states by that time had disciplined soldiers that fought in formations.
Greek Warfare - Ancient History Encyclopedia

They and all other greek city-states would make short-term alliances of convenience to expand their power and territory. The idea of teaming up against a common enemy was not new to them.

The landless of people of Athens fled when the enemy arrived, and they were needed to man the boats in the Persian wars, so they were offered a say in government in return for military service. However, Athens stopped short of determining everyone's needs and providing those needs as a communist state might do and as Sparta did.
Sparta was not communist, and did not provide for its people. The ruling class of citizen Spartans took everything they needed from their slaves and subject states. They were a slave-holding democracy.
http://www.ancient.eu/sparta/

Sparta could do this because Sparta had the manpower and territory to be completely self-sufficient.

Athens HAD to rely on trade and alliances because they didn't have the vast area of land and manpower to compete with Sparta by themselves.

It seems like your using the Greco-Persian Wars as a way of juxtaposing Athenian and Spartan philosophies. Wouldn't the Peloponnesian War be a better example? Again, how do the Persians come into this?

How might rigid military discipline and hierarchy, affect social order and cultural norms?
That would vary immensely depending on exactly what military discipline and hierarchy you are talking about.

How was the barbarian social order and culture different?
Depends on the barbarian. Depends on what you deem to be civilized. Both Athens and Sparta aren't typically seen as barbarian cultures.
Might there be economic and social ramifications coming out of military order?
Again, I have no idea what you mean by military order. That really depends on the "military order" you are talking about. It depends on what "military order" your own "military order" is being used against, and for what general purpose, conquest, defense, raiding etc. that your own "military order" has as its goal.

I don't mean to be rude, but I feel like your points here are inaccurate, illogical, and vague. I just feel like you could've put a lot more work into this. Reading up on Ancient Greece might have helped you here.