How much did Native Populations influence South Slavs?

Mar 2016
12
Canada
Greetings everyone,

As a history fan, and a Croatian, I'm naturally drawn to the history and origins of my people. Generally we're simply seen as remnants of the Slavic migrations of the Dark Ages, but I have some questions to prod, and possibly some stereotypes to break.

How Slavic are South Slavs? By that I mean, generally South Slavs look quite different from West and East Slavs. The two later mentioned groups share many common features, and while I'm not saying there aren't many South Slavs that look typically "north Slavic", I would say many more also look rather different, having more "Mediterranean" features (olive skin, darker hair etc).

Would this be the result of inter-mingling with natives (Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks) or would the ancestors of these Slavs (living in Ukraine and Poland before the migration period) have had similar features?

I'm curious about this because Albanians and Greeks, though they look similar to other Balkan peoples of today, have rather different genetics and languages.

What I'm getting at is: wouldn't South Slavs (supposedly heavily mixed with natives) share more in common genetically with Albanians and Greeks? Croats (for example) and Albanians have quite different genetics. Yet both are supposedly Illyrian mixed?

At the same token, Ukrainians share roughly 20-25% of the most common haplogroup found in Croats (I2) not to mention R1a which is most common in Ukrainians, and second highest in Croats. I would like to note that according to history and mythology the Croatian tribe originated in Ukraine.

It is also worth a note that some consider the Rusyn people descendants of White Croats who stayed in the homeland (Ukraine area).

But again when it comes to features, Croats and all South Slavs look more akin to their neighbors; most heavily Italians, Albanians and Greeks, though sharing fewer common genetics. Generally South Slavs are closest related to one another in every regard.

Now is this me stereotyping people? I have seen a dark Ukrainians, Czechs and Poles, perhaps I am?

Maybe It's because I love antiquity and am always curious about the possible Illyrian connection. Yet sometimes it seemingly makes no sense, and, as far as I know, little is known about the Illyrian language although some known words do supposedly connect to modern Albanian. Is it also wrong to say all Illyrians would have been genetically similar to Albanians?

Perhaps Dacians, after the loss of their culture mingled heavily with Slavs in Southern Ukraine/Poland, and gave the migratory tribes these links?
 
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Jan 2017
99
Poland
How Slavic are South Slavs? By that I mean, generally South Slavs look quite different from West and East Slavs.
Depends which group.

Slovenes and Croats are the most Slavic; Bulgarians or/and Macedonians the least Slavic.

In terms of ancestry.
 
Jan 2017
99
Poland
Uskok said:
I would say many more also look rather different, having more "Mediterranean" features (olive skin, darker hair etc). Would this be the result of inter-mingling with natives (Illyrians, Thracians, Greeks) or would the ancestors of these Slavs (living in Ukraine and Poland before the migration period) have had similar features?
Ancestral to Slavs and Balts were populations of the Trzciniec Cultural Circle (as shown on the map below):

http://s29.postimg.org/3u08ko2rb/screenshot_134.png



Red arrow on the map posted above, shows the location of Gustorzyn.

We have one sample of ancient DNA from Gustorzyn, it was a man from the Trzciniec Cultural Circle:

PL_N17, Early Bronze Age Poland (Gustorzyn), 1953-1880 BC

That individual did not look Mediterranean. He had blue eyes.

Not sure about hair color but I will check it because I have the file with his DNA on my computer.

Here is the prediction of his eye color based on his genes:


 
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Nov 2014
1,933
Cyberspace
I've seen certain Croats and certain western Ukrainians overlap on the plot in the sea of southern, eastern & western (Poles) Slavs.


Slovenes are not much different from Slovaks and Czechs in terms of ancestry and culture. Several linguists from Slovenia and other Slavic countries suggested Slovene is intermediate between south and west Slavic languages.

What always interested me is how certain Greeks are finding Slavic ancestry among them. It must be tiny among Greek when comparing them to northern Slavs.
 

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,790
Republika Srpska
What always interested me is how certain Greeks are finding Slavic ancestry among them. It must be tiny among Greek when comparing them to northern Slavs.
Well, many parts of Greece were overrun by Slavs in the Early Middle Ages. Although Slavs that settled the region were assimilated of expelled some traces still remain.
 
Mar 2016
12
Canada
Ancestral to Slavs and Balts were populations of the Trzciniec Cultural Circle (as shown on the map below):

http://s29.postimg.org/3u08ko2rb/screenshot_134.png



Red arrow on the map posted above, shows the location of Gustorzyn.

We have one sample of ancient DNA from Gustorzyn, it was a man from the Trzciniec Cultural Circle:

PL_N17, Early Bronze Age Poland (Gustorzyn), 1953-1880 BC

That individual did not look Mediterranean. He had blue eyes.

Not sure about hair color but I will check it because I have the file with his DNA on my computer.

Here is the prediction of his eye color based on his genes:


The ancestors of Iberians were dark skinned with blue eyes though?

Also what makes you say Croats and Slovenes are more Slavic than Bulgars and Macedonians?
 
Jan 2017
99
Poland
Modern Greeks rather have more of Albanian admixture than of Slavic admixtures.

Maybe with the exception of Northern Greeks, who may be more mixed with Slavs.
 
Nov 2014
1,933
Cyberspace
Well, many parts of Greece were overrun by Slavs in the Early Middle Ages. Although Slavs that settled the region were assimilated of expelled some traces still remain.
Then those Slavs who overrun certain regions of Greece were already mixed with original population of the Balkans. There is quite a difference between most Slavic regions of Greece and Slavs of Poland, Belarus, western Russia, Ukraine. I would have shown the results of analyses if it was permitted on this forum.
 
Jan 2017
99
Poland
The ancestors of Iberians were dark skinned with blue eyes though?
No, they were not. Modern Iberians are not descended from those people. Iberia was overran by new immigrants.

The Gustorzyn individual PL_N17 was both blue-eyed and light-skinned.

One of recently published Corded Ware individuals from Latvia (so maybe ancestral to Balts) was blonde-haired.

Light skin was present in Ukraine already over 11,000 years ago (recently published Ukraine_HG1 individual).

Also what makes you say Croats and Slovenes are more Slavic than Bulgars and Macedonians?
Croats and Slovenes are much more Northern European in terms of ancestry than Bulgarians and Macedonians.

You can see this also in their appearance.
 
Jan 2017
99
Poland
Slovenians are like 50% "North Slavic", compared to 25% "North Slavic" for Bulgarians.

So an average Slovenian is roughly two times more Slavic than an average Bulgarian.