How much do Spain and Portugal have to pay Israel for expulsion of jews in 1492 and beyond ?

Status
Closed
Jul 2017
237
Neverland
Both countries passed laws in 2015 for granting citizenship to descendants of jewish people
expelled by Ferdinand and Isabella and the Portuguese crowns in the 15 th and 16 th century.
Along with that come monetary compensations.

There are estimated 3.5 million descendents worldwide of those jewish people. After the 2015,
muslims(offspring) of expelled arab occupiers also want compensations, after the Re-Conquista in both countries evicted the Moor populations from Iberia.

Any ideas ? Whose turn is next ?Poland just agreed to compensations to its jewish population, even though the country was not existent as a stand alone government during WWII. In England expelled jews were re-admitted by Oliver Cromwell. Switzerland had to pay billions stashed in Swiss bank by the Nazis in the same time period in the 2000s

Reading History into Law: Who Is Worthy of Reparations? Observations on Spain and Portugal's Return Laws and the Implications for Reparations on JSTOR

After 522 Years, Spain Seeks To Make Amends For Expulsion Of Jews
 
Sep 2012
1,093
Tarkington, Texas
My ex-wife has Sephardic and Axhkenazi genes markers in her DNA. She and my kids should get a cut. She said she was a Cajun, but the Spanish Jews were kicked out during the Spanish Colonization of the New World. I am willing to bet a lot of Spanish Jews went West across the Atlantic.

Pruitt
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,877
Portugal
Both countries passed laws in 2015 for granting citizenship to descendants of jewish people

expelled by Ferdinand and Isabella and the Portuguese crowns in the 15 th and 16 th century.

Along with that come monetary compensations.

There are estimated 3.5 million descendents worldwide of those jewish people. After the 2015,

muslims(offspring) of expelled arab occupiers also want compensations, after the Re-Conquista in both countries evicted the Moor populations from Iberia.

Any ideas ? Whose turn is next ?Poland just agreed to compensations to its jewish population, even though the country was not existent as a stand alone government during WWII. In England expelled jews were re-admitted by Oliver Cromwell. Switzerland had to pay billions stashed in Swiss bank by the Nazis in the same time period in the 2000s

Reading History into Law: Who Is Worthy of Reparations? Observations on Spain and Portugal's Return Laws and the Implications for Reparations on JSTOR

After 522 Years, Spain Seeks To Make Amends For Expulsion Of Jews
I didn’t read the texts in the two links. I don’t have full acess to JSTOR and had cookies problems in the second.

Even so, I would like to clear here some points and inaccuracies stated, I will refer more to the Portuguese case that is the one that I know better (I don’t follow Spanish politics that much):

1. This is not history. This is politics. This is the eventual, tenuous and bizarre possibility that two countries in the future (history is about the past) take the political decision to give money to some other state (born in 1948) or some group or groups of people that can eventually claim descendency from the Sephardi expelled in the 15th century (and at the time that didn’t want to convert) and the Muslims “expelled” in the 17th century.

2. Portugal didn’t pass a law in 2015 to grant citizenship to Sephardi. The law is from 2013. The law of citizenship is from 1981 (Lei n.º 37/81, de 03 de Outubro), and the article 6º of the Lei Orgânica n.º 1/2013, de 29/07, states in the item 7:

“7 - O Governo pode conceder a nacionalidade por naturalização, com dispensa dos requisitos previstos nas alíneas b) e c) do n.º 1, aos descendentes de judeus sefarditas portugueses, através da demonstração da tradição de pertença a uma comunidade sefardita de origem portuguesa, com base em requisitos objetivos comprovados de ligação a Portugal, designadamente apelidos, idioma familiar, descendência direta ou colateral.”

Translation to English:

“7 - The Government may grant nationality by naturalization, with exemption from the requirements set forth in paragraphs b) and c) of paragraph 1, to the descendants of Portuguese Sephardic Jews, by demonstrating the tradition of belonging to a Sephardic community of Portuguese origin , based on proven objective requirements of connection to Portugal, namely family names, family language, direct or collateral descent.”

I know that Brazilians, Cape Verdeans, and even Turkish gained Portuguese citizenship this way, but the numbers are quite low.

This is basically a scheme that reminds me the controversial “Golden Visas” that allowed many rich Chinese to gain Portuguese Citizenship. In other words, a way to attract foreign investment.

It is relevant to underline that this is a way to acquire Portuguese citizenship and the text of the law doesn’t make any reference of the past events in the 15th century or others. It only recognizes that are Sephardic communities of Portuguese origin, with Portuguese family names, speak a language related to Portuguese and those who are descendants of Portuguese and integrated on those communities can legally require Portuguese citizenship to evaluation.

Giving the jump from this item of an article of a Portuguese law to a case of hypothetical monetary compensations, more 500 years after the events, is an exercise of juridical acrobatics.

A side note and a conclusion:

I recall that the Alans and the Vandals were expelled from the peninsula somewhat before, and probably they still have some descendents around, after all as far as I know they weren’t famous for sexual abstinence.

Traditionally in all the juridical systems influenced by the Germanic-roman laws there are “Statutes of limitations” (I hope this is the correct wording in English) that establish the time after the occurrence of a certain even after legal proceedings still may be initiated by the parts. As a personal opinion, I think that all after a couple of generations, a century at most, is pure nonsense.

Anyway, @Bleda, can you give us the highlights of the links that you posted? Thanks.

My ex-wife has Sephardic and Axhkenazi genes markers in her DNA. She and my kids should get a cut. She said she was a Cajun, but the Spanish Jews were kicked out during the Spanish Colonization of the New World. I am willing to bet a lot of Spanish Jews went West across the Atlantic.
Yes, a lot of Spanish Jews went to the Spanish colonies in America, together in a vast flux of migrants from Spain to America from the 15th century to the 19th until the independence of the colonies.

But, just for fun, as a working hypothesis, to understand your reasoning:

If it were established compensations for the Sephardic descendents that were forced to leave Spain, why should the descendents of the ones that were in Spanish territories in America, so that never were forced to leaved the territories of the Spanish crowns, that were colonists of Spain in America, should receive compensations? And if they would receive, they would receive for what?

EDIT:

By the way, the title has an imprecision/ambiguity: Portugal didn't expelled the Jews in 1492, but in 1496/7 (the ones that didn’t converted to the Christianity).
 
Last edited:
Jul 2017
237
Neverland
My ex-wife has Sephardic and Axhkenazi genes markers in her DNA. She and my kids should get a cut. She said she was a Cajun, but the Spanish Jews were kicked out during the Spanish Colonization of the New World. I am willing to bet a lot of Spanish Jews went West across the Atlantic.

Pruitt
Mr.Pruitt, congratulations on your, potentially winning the Spanish and Portuguese lottery, although they are in the process
of discovery at this time...who gets what and how much.It may take a decade or so to compile a list of 3.5 Mln recipients.

Just hold on to the reparation money check, because your family might need to sign over the proceeds to blacks in the USA and American Indians too. Creating an inherited aristocracy in the process.

As you know by now, every major Democratic Party candidate for President of US in 2020 is running
on the platform of paying reparations to African americans and US Indians to the tune of $ 5000 per person a month, till the cows come home.

So, I believe the reparations from Portugal and Spain are going to be hush money, otherwise we might have a Revolucion on the streets of Lisboa, Madrid and Barcelona. This past Saturday, there was a massive protest in front of the US Embassy in Warsaw- Poland. Reparations - a major industry these days, also sexual harassment at work - you ask a female co-worker on a date and all you get is a...court date.

They are accusing the States of being a collection agency for Israel..lol Turns out the government of Poland agreed to pay Israel
nearly $ 300Bln over time.I wonder why, since Poland was defeated by Hitler and he himself was the de facto Prime Minister of Poland during WWII.

Next on the list, Greece and especially the Seleucids for running and sacrificing pigs inside the Temple in Jerusalem, then...Italy ! Sons to pay for the sins of the fathers - Nero, Vespasian, Titus and most of all Hadrian.This reparation settlement might be one for the ages...
 
Jul 2017
237
Neverland
I didn’t read the texts in the two links. I don’t have full acess to JSTOR and had cookies problems in the second.

Even so, I would like to clear here some points and inaccuracies stated, I will refer more to the Portuguese case that is the one that I know better (I don’t follow Spanish politics that much):

1. This is not history. This is politics. This is the eventual, tenuous and bizarre possibility that two countries in the future (history is about the past) take the political decision to give money to some other state (born in 1948) or some group or groups of people that can eventually claim descendency from the Sephardi expelled in the 15th century (and at the time that didn’t want to convert) and the Muslims “expelled” in the 17th century.

2. Portugal didn’t pass a law in 2015 to grant citizenship to Sephardi. The law is from 2013. The law of citizenship is from 1981 (Lei n.º 37/81, de 03 de Outubro), and the article 6º of the Lei Orgânica n.º 1/2013, de 29/07, states in the item 7:

“7 - O Governo pode conceder a nacionalidade por naturalização, com dispensa dos requisitos previstos nas alíneas b) e c) do n.º 1, aos descendentes de judeus sefarditas portugueses, através da demonstração da tradição de pertença a uma comunidade sefardita de origem portuguesa, com base em requisitos objetivos comprovados de ligação a Portugal, designadamente apelidos, idioma familiar, descendência direta ou colateral.”

Translation to English:

“7 - The Government may grant nationality by naturalization, with exemption from the requirements set forth in paragraphs b) and c) of paragraph 1, to the descendants of Portuguese Sephardic Jews, by demonstrating the tradition of belonging to a Sephardic community of Portuguese origin , based on proven objective requirements of connection to Portugal, namely family names, family language, direct or collateral descent.”

I know that Brazilians, Cape Verdeans, and even Turkish gained Portuguese citizenship this way, but the numbers are quite low.

This is basically a scheme that reminds me the controversial “Golden Visas” that allowed many rich Chinese to gain Portuguese Citizenship. In other words, a way to attract foreign investment.

It is relevant to underline that this is a way to acquire Portuguese citizenship and the text of the law doesn’t make any reference of the past events in the 15th century or others. It only recognizes that are Sephardic communities of Portuguese origin, with Portuguese family names, speak a language related to Portuguese and those who are descendants of Portuguese and integrated on those communities can legally require Portuguese citizenship to evaluation.

Giving the jump from this item of an article of a Portuguese law to a case of hypothetical monetary compensations, more 500 years after the events, is an exercise of juridical acrobatics.

A side note and a conclusion:

I recall that the Alans and the Vandals were expelled from the peninsula somewhat before, and probably they still have some descendents around, after all as far as I know they weren’t famous for sexual abstinence.

Traditionally in all the juridical systems influenced by the Germanic-roman laws there are “Statutes of limitations” (I hope this is the correct wording in English) that establish the time after the occurrence of a certain even after legal proceedings still may be initiated by the parts. As a personal opinion, I think that all after a couple of generations, a century at most, is pure nonsense.

Anyway, @Bleda, can you give us the highlights of the links that you posted? Thanks.



Yes, a lot of Spanish Jews went to the Spanish colonies in America, together in a vast flux of migrants from Spain to America from the 15th century to the 19th until the independence of the colonies.

But, just for fun, as a working hypothesis, to understand your reasoning:

If it were established compensations for the Sephardic descendents that were forced to leave Spain, why should the descendents of the ones that were in Spanish territories in America, so that never were forced to leaved the territories of the Spanish crowns, that were colonists of Spain in America, should receive compensations? And if they would receive, they would receive for what?

EDIT:

By the way, the title has an imprecision/ambiguity: Portugal didn't expelled the Jews in 1492, but in 1496/7 (the ones that didn’t converted to the Christianity).
Mr.Tulius, thanks for clearing that question for us.It so happens, that once a country admits guilt, a major reparation settlement follows. In Span and Portugal's case it might take years for a list of recipients to be completed.

In any case, if Poland is to pay Israel over $ 300 Bln over decades in payments, my thinking is that Spain and Portugal might have to fork over $ 500 Bln in total over time. We'll see .

Yes, I'm aware that Poruguese expulsions happened after the Spanish ones. Jewish organizations are arguing for real estate
and cash reparations too. There is no getting away from this one, simply because the saying these days is...USA is the sword of Israel !
 
Mar 2016
1,222
Australia
Reparations for things that happened centuries ago, given to people that did not experience them, nor had parents or grandparents experience them, are abhorrent and one of the most blatantly unethical things a government can force on its people. You're taking money from your own citizens, that did absolutely nothing wrong and are living normal, responsible lives, and giving it to people that have not experienced any wrongdoings or crimes against them, all because 500 years ago some bad things happened to their ancestors. If that isn't blatant discrimination I don't know what is. Where do you want to draw the line? Should I demand reparations from the government of the UK because I had Catholic Irish ancestors that were likely persecuted and oppressed in the 16th and 17th centuries? Or maybe let's go back even further to the 14th century where my Scottish ancestors had their lands invaded and pillaged by the English for decades. Why am I not deserving of reparations? Or are only Jews to be given reparations, and my misfortune is being born into a Catholic family instead?
 
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Linschoten

Ad Honoris
Aug 2010
16,209
Welsh Marches
A country paying Israel (established 1948) compensation for something that it did in 1492! I assume that this is satirically intended.
 
Mar 2016
1,222
Australia
A country paying Israel (established 1948) compensation for something that it did in 1492! I assume that this is satirically intended.
There's a lot of anti-Semitism when it comes to accusing Israel and the Jewish people of being rather underhanded and disingenuous, as per the old stereotypes, and much of it is false and wrong, but things like this certainly do not help their reputation, to be perfectly honest. I'm sure if you told the Jewish people of Iberia in 1492 that a Westernised, democratic nation-state in the middle of the Mamluks' empire would, 500 years later, be collecting their own reparations, they'd give you a funny look, to say the least. What a truly bizarre situation, this is.
 

Chlodio

Forum Staff
Aug 2016
4,461
Dispargum
Moderator hat on. This thread is clearly about modern politics, not European history.

Bleda, find some other interests besides Jews and conspiracy theories or you risk being banned from Historium.
 
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Closed