How much of the German defeats in the Eastern Front in 1944 to 1945 were due to being outstrategized?

#41
"The United States has broken the second rule of war. That is: don't go fighting with your land army on the mainland in Asia. Rule One is, don't march on Moscow. I developed those two rules myself. "

- Montgomery

Some say rule 2 is also Don't March on Moscow!

In other words it can be argued that the whole cause was in Hitler's decision to attack Russia, leading to an inevitable conclusion
3.Should be never listen to monty
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,351
Sydney
#42
Barbarossa was doable , at the margin , it was a gamble and Hitler was a gambler
none of the Generals raised any military objection , they were quite enthusiastic about it
the only ones to have some reservation and put them in writing were the supply branch
they thought the initial assault would run out of steam around Smolensk and need a pause of some weeks
as happened !
as for German strategy , the Generals had none ,
winning the battle at the frontier then strolling leisurely to Moscow was the long and short of it

Hitler idea was winning the battle at the frontier and taking all of the soviet war making resources ,
at least he had some inkling of a winning strategy

P.S. my contempt for German generals tend to make me use a broad brush ,
I would be apologetic but for the fact that against my better judgment I overestimate their intelligence ,
Hitler should have shot the useless lot BEFORE the war
 
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Jan 2015
5,437
Ontario, Canada
#43
Won't lie, I also have contempt for German generals. The only two generals I think were truly good were Model and Kesselring. But other than that I would rather take Red Army generals. In particular Vasilevsky, Vatutin, Rokossovsky, to some extent Konev and maybe even Zhukov. But STAVKA clearly knew what it was doing. OKH and OKW was plagued by bad assumptions and unbelievable infighting. Most likely had Hitler purged his generals as Stalin did, he would have retained more control over the armed forces, gotten rid of the old Prussians in favour of more capable men and they wouldn't have tried to kill him like they did in 1944.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
17,860
SoCal
#44
"The United States has broken the second rule of war. That is: don't go fighting with your land army on the mainland in Asia. Rule One is, don't march on Moscow. I developed those two rules myself. "

- Montgomery

Some say rule 2 is also Don't March on Moscow!

In other words it can be argued that the whole cause was in Hitler's decision to attack Russia, leading to an inevitable conclusion
You can't really blame Hitler for invading Russia after he saw how poorly Russia performed in the Winter War with Finland, though.
 
Jan 2015
5,437
Ontario, Canada
#45
Had Hitler waited any longer then the Wehrmacht would not have done as well as it did. 1941 was the prime opportunity. Stalin only let down his guard because he didn't expect Hitler to invade the Soviet Union while simultaneously fighting a war with Britain. German intelligence flooded Soviet channels with disinformation, so Stalin had no idea what was happening. He interpreted Hitler's actions as an ultimatum to demand territory. But a British false flag to bring the Soviets into the war was also suspected.
 
Likes: sparky
Oct 2018
132
Sweden
#46
Where do you get your ideas from?

Invading the USSR was a colossal mistake....made all the more worse because Britain was still fighting in the West.

Opening up a two front war was the last thing Germany needed...the major lesson of WWI - do not fight a war on two fronts.
That was Hitler's fault and his blind obsession with invading the USSR

Implementing the "final solution" - the Holocaust whilst in the middle of the greatest war of all time was incredibly stupid

Moscow was always the target for Barbarossa. Hitler diverted the effort to encircle Red Army formations in the Ukraine.
Taking Moscow may have won the war and it may not have.

Most East Europeans and even Russians hated Stalin and the Soviet Communist Party...yet instead of harnessing that support, he unleashed the SS on them.

Everything after December 1941 is inconsequential... that was when the war was lost. The rest of the Great Patriotic War merely decided the timing of Hitler's defeat.


Hitler was an evil man....but thankfully he was also the most stupid commander in modern times.
He is directly responsible for the rise of Nazism...and solely responsible (thankfully) for its fall.

Hitler and competent don't belong in the same dictionary, let alone the same sentence.

What a genius you are that recognize that a two front war is bad, Hitler himself didnt want a two front war.
Read Icebreaker to find out why Hitler invaded the Soviet Union.

No the Soviet Staff themselves said during the war that the fall of moscow would change nothing. Hitler needed to defeat the Red army and capture the oil in the Caucassus to stand any chanse.

You can call him evil but he was not a bad commander.
You have watched to much history channel instead of finding out actual facts.
 
Aug 2014
218
New York, USA
#47
What a genius you are that recognize that a two front war is bad, Hitler himself didnt want a two front war.
Read Icebreaker to find out why Hitler invaded the Soviet Union.
Icebreaker is a work of fiction/alternative history.
No the Soviet Staff themselves said during the war that the fall of moscow would change nothing. Hitler needed to defeat the Red army and capture the oil in the Caucassus to stand any chanse.

You can call him evil but he was not a bad commander.
You have watched to much history channel instead of finding out actual facts.
Says someone who read Icebreaker as though it was a legitimate history book!
 
Jan 2015
5,437
Ontario, Canada
#48
Icebreaker is a work of fiction/alternative history.

Says someone who read Icebreaker as though it was a legitimate history book!
I haven't read Icebreaker. All I know is that it was written by a Russian "exile" Viktor Suvorov, who apparently has a hard on for hating Putin or something. I know the basic premise sort of, about Stalin planning to attack Hitler.
Can you tell me what is wrong with it? Specifically the major arguments of Icebreaker.