How much of the Spanish republics in the Spanish Civil War were Communists?

May 2017
918
France
#21
The church of Spain was implicated in the war of Marroco because it has tooken a large part in the actions of the societies of the siderurgical activities.And Garcia Valino was at the head of the corruption in the Grupo Sofico.So business men and not medieval heroes of the Cruzades...
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,084
#22
So they didn't get much popular support but nevertheless were able to punch significantly above their weight militarily.
(1) they controlled almost all the flow of arms from outside Spain. they heavily leveraged this. (of course they got the most/best weapons) and near total control of all tanks, most aircraft.
(2) they controlled the International brigades , most of overseas volunteers which boasted their military arm.
(3) from my understanding from some sources the communists heavily courted the uncommitted politically and heavily targeted middle classes. As the uncommitted group compared to Anarchists and radical socialists it sort of makes sense. Thus Communists protaryed themselevs as the very moderate party in the republician politiics,.
(in part classical Marxist theory said Spain needed a bourgeois revolution rather than socialist one in the classical Marxists stages of development, in part Stalin was hostile to any revolutionary government that would not be controlled from Moscow, but how that would play out in post war after a republican victory is hard to reconcile with the total control Stalinist approach, I just don't see them as folding up and just letting a liberal bourgeois Government take over. )
(4) the communists were a centrally controlled disciplined force and faction.
 
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pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,084
#23
Just a thing, does anyone know if theres any truth to Herman Goring selling rifles to the republics through a Greek intermediary. the Stroy goes the republicans being so desperate for arms Goring could resist the oney making at the price. Allegedly the guns were pretty useless.
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,515
Sydney
#24
could be true ,if indirectly ,
the Republicans forces were desperately short of weapons and obtained a lot through second and third hands weapon dealers
they bought all kind of rubbish at inflated price
they had six kind of Mauser from four countries , japanese Arisaka from old czarist stocks , Mosin -Nagant from the US and Finland , Lebel from Romania ......
even the hoary Grass single shooter in black powder 11mmm !!!!

it could be described as a collector dream and a quartermaster nightmare , it was common for one company to have half a dozen type of rifle and only four cartridge caliber to fit in , at least one , the wrong type

Beside their strong commitment and moral , the strength of the International brigades came from them having first pick of the Soviet supplies
 
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martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,344
Spain
#25
Why'd the PSOE change their attitude in regards to this in 1979?


So they didn't get much popular support but nevertheless were able to punch significantly above their weight militarily.
PSOE was a Marxist Party want the Proletariat Dictatorship till the year 1979 when Felipe González Márquez drove the Party to the Social-democracy.. it was a very hard fight and Felipe González had to threaten to resign...1931-1936, PSOE was the main responsible for the war in his quest to eliminate anyone who interposed in the establishment of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat.

Republic was nor democracy nor liberalism as it was good written by Stanley Payne... it is a RED myth...any democracy self-proclaimed without referendum.. any democracy crush who think different.. any democracy burn libraries and chuches. any democracy killed people because they are different opinion....

Dear Futurist... you can see what "democracy" means for the Spanish Leftist... for the Republic:

The words written and say by the PSOE deputy Lorenzo Carbonell Santacruz the 1936 Polls:




Traduction:

On February 16, do not let the pious women or the nuns vote. When you see someone with a ballot paper from the right parties, cut off his hand, and break it in his face and make him eat.

The Spanish left was never democratic ... neither it is now, unfortunately. It is ignorant, fanatical, sectarian, violent and totalitarian ... it demands submission ... who does not think like them, who does not accept their dogmas of faith ... must be executed ... that is the leftist thought in Spain.

Republic was never a democracy... in Spain Democracy only with the Monarchy... from 1812 to nowadays.
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,344
Spain
#26
The church of Spain was implicated in the war of Marroco because it has tooken a large part in the actions of the societies of the siderurgical activities.And Garcia Valino was at the head of the corruption in the Grupo Sofico.So business men and not medieval heroes of the Cruzades...
Garcia Valiño and Vigon were the greatest Generals in the Civil War....Nationals knew how to win a war.... they have nothing to with save courage, determination, organization and faith... the REDS have the fleet, the Air force, the inner lines. the Industry, the great cities (Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Bilbao, Alicante), the Mines, the money, the Gold reserves.... everything to win.. but they only experimented defeat after defeat.. and Nationals victory after victory...Do you know how many ciities were taken by White forces? 100% cities controlled by Reds...

Between 1936 to 1939.. REDS were only able to take ONE CITY to the White Forces... only one city... Teruel.. and Franco retook Teruel....Never a White city was taken.. save Teruel.. nor Valladolid, nor Burgos, nor Sevilla, nor Baleares, nor Vitoria, Pamplona, Saragossa... nothing!

REDS are wonderful for a shot in the neck or to give a beating .. but they are useless to win a war.
 
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May 2017
918
France
#27
Dear Mr Martin,you forget Toledo (except the Alcazar) and Belchite.Teruel was recuperated by Franco because Camille Chautemps,the t......,closed the fronteer,and the Republic didn t receive the weapons it has paid.The weapons were bloqued in the SNCF station of Toulouse-Matabiau.In fact,the problem was that France had the monopole of the delivery of weapons with Spain (treaty Laval in 1935) and unilateraly destroyed its obligations in 1936 to satisfy England,Germany and Italy.So the reserves of the bank of Spain were transported to Odessa to pay the weapons.
 

Kevinmeath

Ad Honoris
May 2011
13,911
Navan, Ireland
#29
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I read the above book and needless to say its not in agreement with Martins interetaion of events. (taken from a review not may writing)

“ Preston’s book focuses upon the two decades in Spain
from roughly 1930 to 1950, which saw well over a million men, women, and children, killed – many of them deliberately murdered by death squads. It is a sobering read. It forces you to reflect on what is happening right now in Syria and Libya; and cautions all those of us who have ever hoped or worked for revolutionary upheavals anywhere in the world at any time.
Preston’s achievement is to describe the charnel house that Spain became in a way that reveals the nature and extent of the visceral hatreds that shaped Spanish society in the course of class war and numberless massacres.............................................
................ .......................................................................................................


After years in which there was widespread repression of peasants, miners, and industrial workers, years in which the army, police, and even artillery, was deployed against strikers, these tensions came to a head. In the middle of July 1936 right wing army officers rose in revolt against the elected government and proceeded to wage war against the Republic, which they had sworn to defend. Styling them- selves as “Nationalists” the rebels bizarrely accused all those who defended the elected and lawful government of the country of mutiny and rebellion against “Catholic Spain”. In order to provide a spurious legality to their criminal enter- prise the rebels established a military dictatorship, and declared “martial law” on 28th July 1936................................

............Among the first measures taken almost everywhere was the arrest and imprisonment of the local landowners, disloyal army officers, bigwigs, and priests. Everybody, who was suspected of siding with the fascists, with the church, or the military insurgents, was rounded up and imprisoned. Then, in retaliation for deaths caused by rebel bombing, or in response to reports by refugees of terrible atrocities committed by the rebels, demands for the execution of prisoners came thick and fast. In some towns and villages the committees were able to defend the local right wing prisoners, but in other areas the local young socialists, the anarchists, or communists, got their own way, and prisoners were removed in batches from prisons or the basements of town halls where they’d been held, and were killed by the dozen. Sometimes there was the semblance of legal process, but more often than not the local landowners, priests, businessmen, or people known to sympathise with the rebels were simply murdered by militiamen at the crack of dawn.
These were popular crimes. It was extremely difficult for the Republican authorities to control or to stop the slaughter. In larger towns, great crowds would assemble outside prisons following rebel air raids demanding blood, and these crowds, assisted by armed militiamen, at times succeeded in killing dozens, and in some incidents, hundreds of right wing prisoners, many of whom were entirely innocent of taking any action at all against the Republic. Anarchists, young socialists, and communists, even formed death squads which set out across the countryside in cars, trucks, and charabancs, in search of priests and other ‘class enemies’ to murder, and on occasions, these ‘enemies’ might even include small farmers who resisted anarchist proclaimations of “libertarian communism”, because they had no intention of standing idly by while their farms, animals, and tools, were seized by landless labourers for the ‘common good’


..........................
In November 1936 as the war went against the Republic, the Government was evacuated from Madrid to Valencia control of Madrid’s police and prisons passed to the Communist Party, while the roads out of the city that re mained open were in the hands of the anarchists. The communists were able to merge most of the secret prisons run by various militia and political parties in the city, which were dedicated to the capture and murder of anybody sus-pected of rebel sympathies, into a single security apparatus. As rebel troops tightened their grip, digging-in less than two hundred meters from Madrid’s main prison, the communist authorities feared that they might lose control of the situation; they were particularly scared by the idea that imprisoned army officers would stage mass breakouts. Consequently, on the 6th and 7th of November they began the evacuation of fascist and rebel prisoners, and those who, by virtue of their social position or connections, were considered unreliable. They were marked down for “definitive evacuation” or “re- lease”. Over a period of weeks, roped together in twos, deprived of all their personal possessions, the prisoners were transported in convoys of buses and trucks through the anarchist lines to various villages on the outskirts of the city, where they were murdered and their bodies dumped in
hastily dug pits or disused drainage ditches.....”



I suspect some here will like that description and Preston in no way glosses over the faults of the Republicans – sorry ‘Reds’--- however
 
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Kevinmeath

Ad Honoris
May 2011
13,911
Navan, Ireland
#30
Part 2

These horrors, however, paled before those committed by the rebels, who thinking of themselves as warriors engaged in a Holy War against a Jewish-Bolshevik conspiracy, pursued a deliberate policy of extermination of all Republicans in every city, town, and village, which they occupied. There was no question of extra-judicial killings being prompted by military danger, by more or less spontaneous revenge, or as the result of political disorder or tumult, as they were on the Republican side. On the contrary, the rebel forces under the command of General Franco deliberately carried out a programme of terror wherever they took control. They murdered liberal schoolteachers, judges, Republican mayors and officials, and all the members of trade unions or left wing parties they could lay their hands on. The rape and murder of Republican women was routine and was even celebrated in rebel wireless programmes. Republican women were often force-fed castor oil, and with their heads’ shaved, they were paraded, incontinent, through the streets. Republican militiamen and soldiers were immediately shot on capture – until the collapse of the Republican lines at the end of the war in March 1939 large numbers of prisoners were not taken by Franco’s forces – the wholesale killing of prisoners was policy, it was routine. In many places literally thousands of people were murdered in bullrings and other places of detention – the killings often taking days, if not weeks.

Preston argues that at key points in the war Franco refused to pursue strictly military objectives in preference for ensuring that captured territories were exposed to the process of “social cleansing” by firing squad; Franco was prepared to move slowly in order to ensure that in each area taken all traces of Republican influence was exterminated. Indeed a vast archive of card indexes was established in Salamanca on which were held the names and details of members of political parties, trade unions, and masonic lodges, which enabled the rebels remorselessly to track down and murder literally tens of thousands of Republicans.



In March 1939, as the Republican government finally collapsed about a million people fled the country. 20,000 wounded Republican soldiers, stranded in Barcelona, were abandoned to their fate, as 400,000 of the city’s inhabitants, strafed and bombed, trekked north towards the frontier. Large numbers were interned in camps in France, and when a year later the Nazis entered France, many of the Spanish refugees found themselves transported to concentration camps, where thousands of males over the age of 13 were immediately exterminated. Many women and children were packed into cattle trucks and returned to Spain where Franco imprisoned the women and put their kids in orphanages run by the Roman Catholic Church in order to ensure that any Republican nonsense about democracy or free thought theymight have picked up from their parents was knocked out of them by the Christian Brothers or the Daughters of Jesus.
By 1940 Franco’s victory was complete, yet the policy of terror and repression was continued. Out of 15,860 public servants in Catalonia when the rebels took control 15,107 were dismissed. In the years between the end of the war in April 1939, and the lifting of martial law in 1948, 20,000 Republicans were executed by Franco’s dictatorship. With- out considering the uncounted people lost in air raids, those who died on the roads – from exhaustion or machined gunned from the air, or those who perished from malnutrition, disease, or summary execution in prisons and labour camps, some 200,000 people were killed in battle; a further 200,000 were murdered behind the lines, and untold numbers perished at the hands of the Vichy French and the Nazis.

...................................................... What Preston has achieved with this book is the recovery of the thoroughly anti-Semitic character of the rebels, and the active complicity of the Catholic Church; most importantly he has recovered the genocidal character of rebel policy throughout the war and its aftermath – the Republicans were treated as a dangerous and distinct ethnic group, rather than as a multitude of different people sharing a political outlook and a range of different allegiances and affiliations. They were regarded as a homogenous cultural and social entity – a pestilential ethnicity ripe for extermination – entirely distinct from authentic Spaniards. Leading churchmen and parish priests advocated repression and openly supported killings by the bushel. On occasions gun-toting priests murdered prisoners, while it was more usual for them to restrict their participation to the grotesque scenes re-enacted in countless village squares and cemeteries throughout the country where they listened to the confessions of those about to be killed. Republicans were the agents of the Jewish-Marxist-Masonic conspiracy; they were not deserving of Christian charity or forgiveness, and redemption was possible only through punishment and death. Republicans were declared not to be Spanish, which is literally what Franco told the Nazis concerning Republican refugees in France – he simply insisted that the Reds were stateless.....”


https://donmilligan.net/uploads/files/080412_Spanish_Holocaust.pdf

Another review

https://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_298326_en.pdf
 
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