How much of the Spanish republics in the Spanish Civil War were Communists?

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,498
Spain
#71
Mr Martin,you speak about Calvo Sotelo.But everybody knows that he was responsive of the assassinations of the captain of ingeneers Faraudo and of the lieutnant of the "Guardia de Asalto" Castillo.This attitude has more connexions with the mafia s traditions than with a parliamentary comportment.Calvo Sotelo was the spanish Goerhing.

Dear Dupuydumazeldan..

Please.. be as you have been till this momment and not liar as if you were an average leftist...

Calvo Sotelo have not mached to any violence... nothing to do with "lieutenant Castillo".. a "police officer" (A symbol of the decomposition of the country under republican regimen). The Lieutneant Castillo was not a police to serve and to protect.. he was a killer and instructor of Red militamen....he was instructor of PSOE Militias... and he took part in the 1934 Coup d´Etat that PSOE organized against the Republic
Lieutenant Castillo was killed by Royalist (Charlist, Carlistas) because he had shot and severely wounded to Don Andrés Sáez de Heredia only because this Primo de Rivera´s cousin was in the funeral of the Guardia Civil Don Anastasio Reyes.. killed by PSOE terrorist. The Popular Front banned that people from accompanying the funeral to the cemetery. As many people wanted to go to the Cementery with the Reyes´s family... the REDS shot.. and the Lieutenant Castillo (sentenced to 1 year in prison for his participation in PSOE coup d'état in 1934) shot on Sáez de Heredia who was seriously wounded.

The answer came almost 3 months later. A group of Carlistas (or Falangistas said Preston..if he is a "source"... so for sure, they were Royalist (Charlist)) killed Castillo in revenge on July 12th, 1936 at 22:00 pm...it was an eye by an eye.

Regards


Guardia civil Anastasio Reyes killed by the REDS




The Answer:



Lieutenant Castillo killed by WHITES

This unbreathable social climate is what the cretin of Preston calls "example of democracy" ...
 
May 2011
13,938
Navan, Ireland
#72
I´ve never said paid by PCE.. I said a RED paid by PSOE...they are different parties.
Doesn't really matter have you any evidence that he was 'paid' to write the book/books by the 'Reds'? as you claimed.



Maybe for you..not for me...of course, for leftist too.
And by others since he has won awards for his writing.



He died in 1987 with the bes private archive in the world about SCW... and yes his book debunked the Preston´s play.... in fact, Preston Civil War book is from 1986.
No that was one of his first books the one you claimed that he had totally debunked was written almost 20 years after his death.



Please.. Don´t make me to speak about the Universiy of Barcelona... please.
Its a University whether you like it or not is not really relevant.

No, you don´t understand what I say... I am not saying they were wrong for Communist... PCE was moderate comparating to PSOEand not responsible of the War... it was PSOE.. and the Popular Front the main responsables... PSOE and their crimes from 1931. During the War, the middle class lived in Red Zone... prefered PCE because they were moderate in comparation to PSOE.
Sorry up to this point you have been quite clear and dismissed the Republican side , very simplistically, as 'evil' Reds.

By other side during the War... Soviets controlled the Republic... everything.. PSOE-PCE.. they elimated POUM.. they controlled the Republican State... Nor German nor Italian nor nobody controlled never the National Spain. Franco was not submitted to Hitler or Mussolini as Republic was submited to Stalin.
I would have thought the problem for the Republicans was that the Communists didn't have enough influence because they were so fragmented even fighting amongst themselves. How can you have an Anarchistic army?

And how influential Hitler and Mussolini were or were not doesn't really matter you can not condemn the Republicans for taking support the Soviet Union and Stalin and simply ignore the fact that the Nationalists had the support of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy.

Franco was not a Fascist.. he never was member of any party and he never applied a Fascist Politic...
Well thats debatable but again doesn't really matter, whether Franco was or was not a Fascist or a proto Facist or 'So very right wing thats he just looks like a Fascist' is irrelevant, You can not condemn the Republican side because it contained extreme left wing parties such as the Communists and ignore the fact that the Nationalist side had extreme right wing elements such as the Fascists.

The only Spanish holocaust was the extermination policy carried out by the Republic against Catholicism ... that was a Holocaust.
Well Preston profoundly disagrees with you and argues that the killings were worse on the Nationalist side however no book I have ever read doesn't outline atrocities committed by both sides, certainly the Church had managed to alienate large sections of the Spanish population.



Idealist or not... they were Stalinist fighting by Stalin against the Catholiscim and the Monarchy. Also in the Wafffen SS and in the NKVD.. we can find many idealist.. and what?a
And there were Fascists and Nazi's on the Nationalist side.

And sorry don't see why Catholicism and Monarchy are so special.

In the White Armies, they were many idealist fighting by Jesuchrist, Spain, and the King. And fighting Revolution. Yes, many British REDS fought by the Red Dictatorship.. and yes, they were the Stalin´s heroes.. I prefer other British heroes as Peter Kemp or Rupert Bellville or Gordon Selfridge.. a Billonaire´´s son enlisted in Burgos full of enthusiasm to stop the "damned reds".

Peter Kemp.. a really volunteer of the Freedom against Reds
...........................
Rich people fighting to protect the rich sorry I have got more respect for people born in poverty who worked to help themselves and their neighbours and who risk everything to follow a cause they believe and fight Fascism they believe than billionaire play boys who think it an adventure.
 
May 2017
1,011
France
#73
Mr Martin,you show a photo of the friends of Calvo Sotelo,the right arm up,the hand opened in the direction of the sky....are you sure of the caracter democratic of this manifestation which seems curiously presented common attitudes with the german crowds of people in the stadium of Berlin at the same time ? Perhaps that if we had done the same thing to Hitler,we would have six years (1939-1945) more quiet for the humanity no ?
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,498
Spain
#74
First.. we beat the British Reds then...

Doesn't really matter have you any evidence that he was 'paid' to write the book/books by the 'Reds'? as you claimed.
I prove how PSOE fund Preston through Conference and money for investigation...

Preston funded by Generalidad .

Thi slink about Preston a politician demogogue he names to himself as historian... but he is only a PSOE propaganda system´s member.

Stanley payne against Preston. Wall Street Journal

Those who supported the generals defined the Nationalist cause as a struggle against communism and on behalf of Western and Christian civilization. Those who favored the Republican revolutionaries called it a war of democracy versus fascism.

The Socialists regained power in 2004 and in 2007 passed a Law of Historical Memory, which gave a sort of official interpretation of the Spanish Civil War: The revolutionaries who opposed Franco had fought for "democracy" rather than for their revolutionary utopias. It also provided subsidies for a variety of projects examining the war and for the continued investigation and excavation of common graves

PSOE funds evething act of PROPAGANDA. Preston is only one of his dogs.

About Preston...STANLEY PAYNE.


His interpretation, though, is hardly impartial. Mr. Preston devotes his first 200 pages to the origins of the war, which are found to lie almost exclusively with the depravity of Spanish conservatives, capable of any enormity and of going to any length to cancel "reforms" in the early 1930s. "Reform" is a particularly loaded term in this field, being the code among leftist historians for the revolutionary process that Spain underwent between 1930 and 1936. There were four violent revolutionary insurrections between 1932 and 1934, followed by the systematic falsification of elections and the beginning of an assault on property and institutions under the benign gaze of a leftist government.


(...)

For all that, though, "The Spanish Holocaust" is burdened by an age-old perspective of the left in which the atrocities committed by the Republicans are at least partially excusable because they were carried out by "uncontrollables," mainly anarchists, and not as part of a central policy, whereas the crimes of the Francoists are considered to have been centrally planned. The revolutionary regime was indeed semi-pluralist, as political scientists would say. But the different leftist groups frequently collaborated when they killed, sometimes with the cooperation and participation of the Republican government.

It was, moreover, the Republican government that had originally armed the revolutionary movements and enabled them to embark on arbitrary executions. The atrocities by each side were not at first simply a "response" to the other, as their partisans maintain, but began simultaneously and on a large scale. The stage had been set by the ever-increasing violence that attended the revolutionary process during the years of the Republic, climaxing in 1936.


Payne unmasks Paul Preston.... the famous PSOE activist:

He presents no evidence of any plan of "annihilation," "extermination," "genocide" or "holocaust," to use his favorite terms. It is clear enough that the Francoists generated more victims than did their opponents. In such affairs, the winners always kill more. Yet the special military tribunal set up by Franco toward the end of 1936 to purge newly occupied areas of Republicans examined more than 30,000 cases during the next two years and dismissed half of them. Hardly a process of "extermination" or "holocaust." It was a brutal war for combatants and civilians, but, in contrast to the contemporary horrors in Turkey, Russia or the Nazi imperium, the overall loss of life was not great.

Nor is the evidence that Mr. Preston does present quite as clear as he makes out. The truth of the matter is that definitive research concerning the political executions has been completed for only a few regions of Spain. Most monographic studies suffer from methodological flaws or limitations and will have to be redone, and it is still necessary to be cautious with regard to statistics. Yet there are enough careful studies to make some reliable estimates, and the ones offered by Mr. Preston are within an appropriate range. His figure of 50,000 executions by the Republicans cannot be far wrong. The conclusion that the Francoists did away with slightly more than 100,000 people is probably an exaggeration, but not a wild one. A figure nearer 70,000 might be more accurate. Curiously, the figure he gives for executions by the Franco regime after the war ended (20,000) is, in my judgment, too low. The correct statistic is probably nearer 30,000.

What is more serious is Mr. Preston's failure to explain how this "holocaust" or policy of "extermination" came to an end several years after the war with the vast majority of the defeated left in Spain still very much alive. When Franco finally had the Republicans completely at his mercy after the collapse of the republic in 1939, he did not "exterminate" them. That there was not a true "holocaust" is shown by the census of 1940, which revealed that population growth had not been greatly impeded by the events of the preceding decade. And any concern that this was an inaccurate census is put to rest by the fact that its data are consistent with the 1950 census.

MATHEMATICS.... phoney Preston... MATHEMATICS

One needs only to do the math. At the end of the civil war, Spain had a population of approximately 25 million, some four million of whom at one time or another had participated in leftist organizations. Of these, Franco's police arrested about 10%. If we accept my upwardly revised estimate of 30,000 postwar executions, that would indicate the killing of approximately eight-tenths of 1% of Spain's actively leftist population, with 99.2% surviving. This amounts to neither "holocaust" nor "annihilation," however much it must offend our more humane 21st-century sensibilities. Rather than implementing some radical new Hitlerian or Pol Pot-like scheme, the essentially traditionalist Franco followed the policy of victors in civil wars throughout most of history: slaughtering the leaders and main activists of the other side while permitting the great bulk of the rank and file to go free

Mr. Preston declares that one of his chief goals with "The Spanish Holocaust" is to place the repressions in broader perspective, but here his failure is absolute. There is not the slightest attempt to compare the atrocities in Spain with those in any of the other revolutionary civil wars of early-20th-century Europe. If he had bothered to do the work, Mr. Preston would have found that, for example, the repression carried out by the democratic parliamentary government of Finland in 1918 was equivalent to that of the Spanish, whether of the "good" left or the "bad" right.


Sorry up to this point you have been quite clear and dismissed the Republican side , very simplistically, as 'evil' Reds.
No simplistically.. they were REDS... REDS from 1931 when they burnt churches, schools, libraries...REDS from the day they gave the Coup in 1934... REDS from the day they took the power not respecting the poll results in February 1936... REDS from the first to the last day of the war.

The 2nd Republic Air Force ensign:



Pure RED.

Well thats debatable but again doesn't really matter, whether Franco was or was not a Fascist or a proto Facist or 'So very right wing thats he just looks like a Fascist' is irrelevant, You can not condemn the Republican side because it contained extreme left wing parties such as the Communists and ignore the fact that the Nationalist side had extreme right wing elements such as the Fascists.
Fascist didn´t control the National Spain.... whilst RED controlled the Republican Spain. Not German at all or Italian at all say Franco what he could do or not... both Legion Condor as CTV were under Franco´s control... nor Soviets nor International Brigades were under Spanish Republican control.

Rich people fighting to protect the rich sorry I have got more respect for people born in poverty who worked to help themselves and their neighbours and who risk everything to follow a cause they believe and fight Fascism they believe than billionaire play boys who think it an adventure.
A British Marxist talking about the fight of Class in the Civil war... Rich vs Poor.. as false as the same Nostradamus!!!
Spanish Civil war was not a war between Rich and Poors... but between Revolutionaries.... and Counter-revolutionaries....between Reds and White,,, Communist and Anti-Comunist...

Franco had 1,8 millions soldiers in the War... So... Spain is the richest country in the world...1,8 millions Richmen!! according with the RED kevinmeath...

This is the people what Kevinmeath names... Spanish Billionaires!

The Charlist... the Traditionalist Communion!




.
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,498
Spain
#75
Mr Martin,you show a photo of the friends of Calvo Sotelo,the right arm up,the hand opened in the direction of the sky....are you sure of the caracter democratic of this manifestation which seems curiously presented common attitudes with the german crowds of people in the stadium of Berlin at the same time ? Perhaps that if we had done the same thing to Hitler,we would have six years (1939-1945) more quiet for the humanity no ?
Now its the moment to beat in details the French Reds!

Dear dupuy.

the photo is noth matched to Calvo Sotelo.. It is a photo about the Don Anastasio Reyes burial... killed by the REDS on April 14th, 1936....the Red government banned any no popular accompaniment to the corpse. However, people from different politican party and people without politican activity.. accompanied the corpse to the cemetery ... nothind with Calvo Sotelo..


I know you know nothing about this great man...he was minister with Primo de Rivera during Monarchy.... Minister of Finance.. he organized the first income tax ... he opposed the landed aristocracy ... and he got women had right to vote in Spain ...(March, 8th, 1924).

who didnt´want the wome have right to vote? LEFT.... PSOE and PCE.... as always, of course....



Calvo Sotelo, third from left...second rank (stands). The cabinet grantd vote to women in 1924.
 
May 2017
1,011
France
#76
I apologize,i have forgotten that Primo de Rivera was a democrat,but in a Mussolini version ,no? In Germany they had also good policemen who practiced this type of manifestation,it was the SIPO-SD,and his office well known,the Gestapo.
 

sparky

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
4,710
Sydney
#78
The Tunisian Destour movement led tunisia to independence and ruled afterward it was modeled and received subsidies from Mussolini
that was quite common around the Mediterranean , including in Egypt ,Malta , Lebanon ...etc

Italian Fascism had a good reputation as popularly based and efficient to make a country progress
the colonial countries were democracies and a fat lot of good that did to their colonized people

of course Mussolini had further intentions of expanding his own control
but there was enough common road for many people to travel with them

the politics of the inter wars period wasn't the same as now , democracies had ( rightly ) a terrible reputation
double crossing , hypocrisy , craven submission to Nazi Germany , appalling economics
in contrast the countries not under parliamentary system were looking good ,
not least because they absolutely controlled the propaganda

the struggle wasn't between the democracies and the authoritarian regimes
it was between the authoritarians themselves , the choice was the Nation or the people
many who fought for the Fascists or the reds were taken in the sweep of events , their allegiance dependent on individual circumstance
 
May 2017
1,011
France
#79
What R. de la Cierva and his little club cannot understand is that the spanish republic has made what it was elected for:
Economy:the end of the medieval system of the "latifundia",heritage of the night of the history.It was time to end the esclavagism.
Society:the end of the dominance of the society by the spanish clergy,son of the Inquisition,leaded by business men suited as priests,but husbands,fathers and strong capitalists.It was time to close the "cacic system".
Politics:the entrance in the democracy,and the practice of real élections.This schema cannot be consacrated with the activities of fascists organizations,paid and formed by the Axis.
Law:the Code Civil of Napoleon was a very good system, but rejected by the absolutist Fernando VII.As Russia,Spain has won 150 years more of dictature.
 
Likes: sparky
May 2011
13,938
Navan, Ireland
#80
First.. we beat the British Reds then....
'We'? didn't realise you fought in the civil war -- although if it is just wishful thinking does illustrate your partisan attitude and interpretation of history.



I prove how PSOE fund Preston through Conference and money for investigation...

Preston funded by Generalidad .

Thi slink about Preston a politician demogogue he names to himself as historian... but he is only a PSOE propaganda system´s member..
Sorry those links are in Spanish but whatever those opinion pieces say Paul Preston was ,until his retirement, a Professor and award winning author at the London School of Economics. Now he my favour the left but equally historians such as Payne favour the right if you really want to understand history rather than just support your own political bias you should really read both with an open mind.

Stanley payne against Preston. Wall Street Journal

Those who supported the generals defined the Nationalist cause as a struggle against communism and on behalf of Western and Christian civilization. Those who favored the Republican revolutionaries called it a war of democracy versus fascism...............
"...Stanley Payne is a rightwing historian, of course he is going to be opposite of Preston-- doesn't mean he is 'right' and the other 'wrong'. Fopr instance a review of his book studying Franco co authored with Jesús Palacios Tapias ( a right wing journalist)

"Stanley G. Payne needs no introduction. He has a well-deserved reputation as an excellent historian who has produced, among other publications, perhaps the best guide to the study of European Fascism (A History of Fascism, 1914–45). He is also the author of numerous books on Spain, some of them real landmarks in our knowledge of that country’s modern history.....................................Payne’s co-author, Jesús Palacios, is a journalist and historian (in that order), well known in Spain, where he has a wide circle of admirers and friends, many of whom come from the right and far right.....................
...........................In recent years Payne, too, has cultivated a wide array of contacts among conservative and far-right circles, both inside and, mostly, outside Spanish academia. He is, for example, a friend of Carmen Franco, the dictator’s daughter (on whose testimony he relies heavily throughout this book), and he has written prologues for, or endorsed the works of, controversial authors such a Pío Moa.....................................


.............As the book under review demonstrates, both Payne and Palacios write well; are precise and judicious with their material; and put forth a strongly conservative interpretation, both methodologically and ideologically......................

................In many ways, this book, while diametrically opposed in ideological terms, is similar in conception to the equally massive and also excellent biography of the dictator written by Paul Preston two decades ago.(1) Both books are often complementary, and both are a must read for any serious student of the subject..................

.....................Payne’s and Palacios’ largely sympathetic narrative makes Franco’s regime less exceptional and more acceptable – a tendency that is most evident when they describe the dictator’s role in Spain’s post-war modernization............"

So he does not demolish anything he is s right wing historian who has a sympathetic view of Franco, as the reviewer says read both.



Payne unmasks Paul Preston.... the famous PSOE activist:.................
No he doesn't.




No simplistically.. they were REDS... REDS from 1931 when they burnt churches, schools, libraries...REDS from the day they gave the Coup in 1934... REDS from the day they took the power not respecting the poll results in February 1936... REDS from the first to the last day of the war........................
And if you read any authors on the period (Preston does not deny any of this for instance) you would know there was atrocious behaviour on both side-- yopu simply chose to ignore one side.

".....Moreover, Payne and Palacios go further by denouncing the February elections as fraudulent and thus totally invalid. For these authors, this means that the Popular Front-backed Government was, again, illegitimate. This is an old argument of the far right, and it is completely false. While it is true that the elections in two provinces – Granada and Cuenca – were very irregular, perhaps even completely fraudulent, this does not invalidate the whole ballot or the thin but clear victory of the left. Democracy has always been evolving and certainly has never been perfect, even less as clean as its enemies sometimes hypocritically demand (only to negate it and destroy it). Consider, for example, the United States from the presidency of George Washington to that of Lyndon B. Johnson: does the fact that African Americans, both as slaves and as disenfranchised citizens, could not vote render the whole story of American democracy for over a century and a half invalid?........

The 2nd Republic Air Force ensign:.



Pure RED.................
And relevant because? and your back to your simplistic name calling and division into good and bad that you claimed you weren't doing!



Fascist didn´t control the National Spain.... whilst RED controlled the Republican Spain. Not German at all or Italian at all say Franco what he could do or not... both Legion Condor as CTV were under Franco´s control... nor Soviets nor International Brigades were under Spanish Republican control...........................
How much control the Soviet Union had compared to the Nazi's and Fascist had is not relevant-- you can not condemn the Republican side for taking aid from the Soviet Union (what other choice did they have!) and ignore the fact that the Nationalists had the(very active) support of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy.

The International Brigades were also idealistic (yes in my opinion naïve) individuals while the Italians and Germans were fully formed military units.



A British Marxist talking about the fight of Class in the Civil war... Rich vs Poor.. as false as the same Nostradamus!!!
Spanish Civil war was not a war between Rich and Poors... but between Revolutionaries.... and Counter-revolutionaries....between Reds and White,,, Communist and Anti-Comunist....
The Spanish Civil war was not a simple Facism v Communism but rather more complex than that-- so the Internation Brigaders were naïve in that but equally people such as Peter Kemp or the many Irishman who joined Franco's side were equally naïve.

And your simplistic assertion that its Communist v Anti-Communist is simply wrong.

Franco had 1,8 millions soldiers in the War... So... Spain is the richest country in the world...1,8 millions Richmen!! according with the RED kevinmeath....
And how many million were on the Republican side?

And sorry "RED kevinmeath' sorry what does that mean? are you implying its an insult? or that I support Manchester Utd?

Pathetic.

Although I suppose it is an illustration of the attitude of some today who like to split the world into Right and Left --Good guys v Bad Guys-- which is which of course depends on you political bias.

This is the people what Kevinmeath names... Spanish Billionaires!

The Charlist... the Traditionalist Communion! ........
Well this is simply dishonest I never claimed that the nationalist side were all rich and billionaires --- rather you quoted a couple of British people who joined Franco to fight 'the reds' who were rich, privately educated etc I responded that I had more respect for common people who risked everything to go to far away Spain to fight for a cause (perhaps naively) they believed in than rich playboys who thought it a jolly adventure.

Perhaps try answering the posts rather than making up an argument.
 
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