How much of the Spanish republics in the Spanish Civil War were Communists?

May 2017
1,011
France
#81
Mr Martin says one time that the Condor s Legion and the Mussolini s army were under the control of Franco,and in an other time that the "caudillo" was not responsive of the slaughter of Guernica.Can we consider that Franco and the Caudillo are two different men ?
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,498
Spain
#82
'We'? didn't realise you fought in the civil war -- although if it is just wishful thinking does illustrate your partisan attitude and interpretation of history.
Wrong againg. The SCW is not history.... but politics... politics from the moment, PSOE built an Official History (what never was done by the winners) between 2004 and 2007 to split the Society... "sectorization" is the name....politics not history.... Preston is a Socialits works for PSOE. Of course, it is his right... what´s not his right it is to disguise the Propaganda as History.... no way!

The great different between Payne and Preston is Payne is supported by evidences.... Preston never. Payne´s figures are based on mathematics... on facsts, on papers and in life....most of the reds lived under Francoist regimen and some of them became very rich... most of the Red lived in Spain (not exiliated...but living here all their lifes). As well said Payne... Preston is a manipulator when he used words as "Holocaust"...

The "Holocaust"

Everybody knows El 5º Regimiento (Fifth Regiment) the Communist Elite in Spain, members of the PCE and MAOC

One of his members was a spanish humorist.... Miguel Gila, he was POW in december 1938....captured by the National Army. He was in a Prisioner Camp till the end of the war, and then in Jail till April 1940.... In April he had to the military service in the Spanish Army till 1945...

The "Holacaust" according to Preston: Gila with Children in the Francoist Television... 1957


In any other country save Spain... a communist fought by a communist unit in the War... would have been in TV with children.... Save in Francoist regimen!

and he is not the exception but the rule... as well it was written by Payne.... around 4 or 4,5 millions Spaniards have been members in Red organizations.. and they lived in Spain all their lifes... Franco let they lived their lifes.... Spain was not Finnland, Turkey, Russia, Jugoslavija, China etc etc


Dear Kevin.. what´s dishonet (and manipulator) is to say the British fought by Franco were rich with desire for adventures.. and the British fought by Stalin were "idealist"... I say again also the SS and the NKVD were full of idealist members.... and what? most of Red British fought by idealism.... as the few fought in the White side....they fougth to stablish the Red Dictatorship in Spain...I have not sympathies for them.

You are right about the profile of the British volunteer on the national side: Most of them were young, rich, well-mannered and full of romanticism... for them they were taking part in a Crusade.... Hidalgos against Red Demons.

I understand you or Preston or Ken Loach (by other side a great director)...support the Red side as most of the British... so nice to communism when it doesn't affect them ....in 1936, 80% British people supported the Reds opposite 14% prefered the Whites. I guess most of them people from very low social class.... as the hoolingans and hoodies today....
However British Establishment supported the White side... In 1936, 85% prefered Whites opposite 5% prefered the Reds. British Elite... people produce prosperity and civlization showed their sympathy for Franco and the others generals.

People from 37 countries came to fight for Franco or the National side in the War... from as remote areas as Argentina, Chile, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Mongolia... but most from Portugal, Italy and Germany. (Of course, Morocco but they were regular colonial troops).

Between British politics showed their sympathies to the White side:

Royal House

Stanley Baldwin, Neville Chamberlain and Winston Churchill.

Pablo de Azcárate, the Republican Ambassador in London, was mortifying that the British Prime Minister always had excuses not to receive him ... when it was an obligation, as Prime Minister, to receive accredited ambassadors. In parallel, Franco's representative in London, Duke of Alva, who was not an ambassador, because he was not officially recognized, had all the doors of power open. Churchill, Chamberlain, Baldwin ... the King himself received the representative of Franco, without any problem. When the Spanish embassy organized an event ... no one from the City, the Aristocracy, or the British political power attended ...however, when the Duke of Alva organized one meeting, the City, the Aristocracy and the British Power took part ....whist the Red ambassador was ignored by the "elite" class.. the white "ambassador" was invited to the social events...

Source: Azcarate, Pablo. Mi embajada en Londres durante la Guerra Civil Española. Editorial Ariel. Barcelona. 1976).
Source: Rodríguez - Moriño Soriano, Rafael. La Misión diplomática de Don Jacobo Stuart Fitz James Falcó, XVII Duque de Alba, en la embajada de España en Londres. (1937-1945). Editorial Castalia. 1971.

It is clear, the British Elite supported Nationals in the War.

By the way, the Elections in February 1936 was won by the Righ... but the left organization took the power.. they never published or edited the official results of the Polls...not even the red historian are interested to know who won the elections... only one book about this:



A book written by two historian: Álvarez Tardio and Villa García
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,498
Spain
#83
Mr Martin says one time that the Condor s Legion and the Mussolini s army were under the control of Franco,and in an other time that the "caudillo" was not responsive of the slaughter of Guernica.Can we consider that Franco and the Caudillo are two different men ?

As I say to you.... Guernica was a military operation....air support given because land units requested air support.... nothing to do with Franco... as not all the victims produced by air supoort in 1944/45 can be attributed to Eisenhower or to Roosevelt.... Guernica was a military operation... as the documents and reports prove it. The rest... it is an invention... Propaganda is the name.
 
May 2017
1,011
France
#85
Mr Martin,you know everything,more than us, about the tragedy of Guernica.Why did Franco autorize the nazis to bomb the supermarket of Guernica,where old women and young mothers were discussing the price of the potatoes and the tomatoes ?
 
May 2011
13,938
Navan, Ireland
#86
Wrong againg. The SCW is not history.... but politics... politics from the moment, PSOE built an Official History (what never was done by the winners) between 2004 and 2007 to split the Society... "sectorization" is the name....politics not history.... Preston is a Socialits works for PSOE. Of course, it is his right... what´s not his right it is to disguise the Propaganda as History.... no way!
Well Martin this is a history site so we should really be discussing history not politics.

However its instructive to hear you admit that your objection and view of historians are based on you political belefs, isn't it rather hypocritical to denounce and discount Preston writing political history when you basically do the same?

The great different between Payne and Preston is Payne is supported by evidences.... Preston never. Payne´s figures are based on mathematics... on facsts, on papers and in life....most of the reds lived under Francoist regimen and some of them became very rich... most of the Red lived in Spain (not exiliated...but living here all their lifes). As well said Payne...
Well that's your opinion all I can say for all you dismissing Preston he produces critically acclaimed work and yes his conclusions go against your politics.


Preston is a manipulator when he used words as "Holocaust"...

The "Holocaust"......................
On this I would agree and he has received criticism for using this term, it is over used.


.............One of his members was a spanish humorist.... Miguel Gila, he was POW in december 1938....captured by the National Army. He was in a Prisioner Camp till the end of the war, and then in Jail till April 1940.... In April he had to the military service in the Spanish Army till 1945...............................
This would be the man who survived the firing squad because some of the squad were drunk and missed him and he played dead while his comrades died? later recaptured imprisoned and force to serve in the Spanish army for years. In 1956 he was suspended for critiquing the Spanish governments statement that there were no political prisoners in Spain -- do you get suspended for critiquing the government in a democracy? oh hang on it wasn't a democracy was it but a military dictatorship-- eventually he went into exile in South America, not a good example.


Dear Kevin.. what´s dishonet (and manipulator) is to say the British fought by Franco were rich with desire for adventures.. and the British fought by Stalin were "idealist"...
But I never said that did I? you were the one who claimed I said all the Nationalists were 'Billionaires' which was simply wrong-- you quoted three British people who served on the Nationalist side at least two of whom came from very privileged back grounds and one of whom (as you stated!) was very rich and seemed to view the war as a bit of fun.

A book I found interesting on the subject



So I am well aware of the varied motivations.

I say again also the SS and the NKVD were full of idealist members.... and what? most of Red British fought by idealism.... as the few fought in the White side....they fougth to stablish the Red Dictatorship in Spain...I have not sympathies for them.
That's simply not true--- the most common reason given was that they believed they were fighting against Fascism, that may have been naïve and many at the time did not understand what the Soviet Union actually was or perhaps what was actually going on in Spain that however could equally apply to those volunteers on the nationalist side.

You are right about the profile of the British volunteer on the national side: Most of them were young, rich, well-mannered and full of romanticism... for them they were taking part in a Crusade.... Hidalgos against Red Demons.
Well you have just contradicted yourself and terms like Crusade, Red-demons and Hidalgos that your are far from impartial on the subject.

I understand you or Preston or Ken Loach (by other side a great director)...support the Red side as most of the British...
Obviously you don't understand.

I don't 'support' the 'Red' side what a childish notion -- why must people 'support' one side its not a football game, its not a case of 'good guys v bad guys'.

Just because I don't support your side doesn't mean I support the other--- I prefer to study history and leave childish simplifications to politics.

so nice to communism when it doesn't affect them ....in 1936, 80% British people supported the Reds opposite 14% prefered the Whites. I guess most of them people from very low social class.... as the hoolingans and hoodies today....
I would question the % you quote and sorry the "...hoolingans and hoodies today...." comment is just foolish, trying to be provocative or is it simple arrogance?

However British Establishment supported the White side... In 1936, 85% prefered Whites opposite 5% prefered the Reds. British Elite... people produce prosperity and civlization showed their sympathy for Franco and the others generals.

Yes unsurprising the rich elite supported the rich elite.

People from 37 countries came to fight for Franco or the National side in the War... from as remote areas as Argentina, Chile, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Mongolia... but most from Portugal, Italy and Germany. (Of course, Morocco but they were regular colonial troops).
And the International Brigades came from all over the world as well. The Irish were the third lagerest volunteer group on the Nationalist side and their leader was a Fascist -- amongst other things.

Between British politics showed their sympathies to the White side:

Royal House

Stanley Baldwin, Neville Chamberlain and Winston Churchill...........................................



.......................It is clear, the British Elite supported Nationals in the War................
The establishment supported the establishment what a surprise.

.......................By the way, the Elections in February 1936 was won by the Righ... but the left organization took the power.. they never published or edited the official results of the Polls...not even the red historian are interested to know who won the elections... only one book about this:..........................
That is your opinion and is contested by other authors.
 
May 2017
1,011
France
#87
If the fascists organizations of Spain constitued the majority of the nation,why did they never organized free élections...….because as said de la Cierva:"The military putsch of july 1936 is not a putsch because the legality of the republic cannot exist….".This is political propaganda,and so de la Cierva had the sad destiny to survive to his books.The picture of Guernica has survived to the master Picasso.
 
Nov 2010
7,648
Cornwall
#88
Of course most people were in the middle. But in the radical political climate of the 20s and 30s in Europe, in Spain it took the form of having to support very left wing policies (however tight the election, they were in) or join a rebellion against it. Also it should be fairly obvious that after that, self preservation dictates that you sort of side with the people in charge in your area.

To suggest it was some sort of Franco-led fascist rebellion is ludicrous - but once Franco got to be leader (and everybody else fell by the way), his methods proved fairly uncompromising.

It's somewhat shocking that people don't understand that if you start dismantling a society, church and economy (such as it was) that people hold dear, people are going to rebel against it. Radical left-wing politics over common sense - remember it took the anarchist-led Generalitat a year to realise that reducing the working week 'for the workers' reduced their war production by a 5th. Doh
 
Likes: martin76

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,498
Spain
#89
Dear Kevin,

We are not saying so much different things.. save in Preston... for you he is a great historian... for me he is a Socialist doing Propaganda... Bulloten was a great British historian for me.

However its instructive to hear you admit that your objection and view of historians are based on you political belefs, isn't it rather hypocritical to denounce and discount Preston writing political history when you basically do the same?
I´ve never been interested in Politics... never in my life.... save in the Individual freedom... when a State is controlled by a Party and the Party writes the History... I am going to be always in opposite side. Remember Espronceda (1808 - 1842) words: That´s my ship my treasure, my God the Freedom, my law the Force and the wind, my only country the Sea. It is true... in 1936 I would have been with Rebellion. I love too much the freedom to be with Reds!

If you say there were fascists in the rebellion... you are right.. And I agree with you... for example: Onésimo Redondo. But if you say.... Rebellion was a fascist movement... you are very wrong.... in the Rebellion they took part republicans as Queipo de Llano, Liberals as Mola, Freemansonry as Cabanellas, Catholics, Monarchists, liberals, charlist, conservatives etc.

If we must to say who were the most important groups... I will say: Catholics and Monarchist.
And dear Kevin.. they were pro-germanist as Muñoz Grandes or Serrano Suñer... but also Anglophiles as Valera (The chief of the Army of Africa), Kindelan (the chief of the Spanish Air Force) etc

I am sure you know the "parents of the Republic) supported the Rebellions as Ortega y Gasset, Gregorio Marañón and Unamuno... and also in Britain, one Labor Diputy supported the Rebellion: Even a Labor diputy (and Labor Party is a kind of British "PSOE" or modern PSOE a kind of British Labor Party) supported Franco and the Rebellion: A.T. Lennox - Boyd. As well said Sparky it was not a war between democracy vs Dictatorship but war between Red Dictatorship and White dictatorship or between the East Civilization vs Western Civilization.

By the way dear Kevin, I have the book you have put in the link... and also Peter Kemp "Legionarios en España" (Legionnaies in Spain). Peter Kemp came to Spain to fight in the Tradition, Charlist or Carlistas and after being wounded fighting into the Tercios Ranks.. .he went into Legión. A real Hero, Peter Kemp.

This would be the man who survived the firing squad because some of the squad were drunk and missed him and he played dead while his comrades died? later recaptured imprisoned and force to serve in the Spanish army for years. In 1956 he was suspended for critiquing the Spanish governments statement that there were no political prisoners in Spain -- do you get suspended for critiquing the government in a democracy? oh hang on it wasn't a democracy was it but a military dictatorship-- eventually he went into exile in South America, not a good example.
A good example. First because his shot it is not proved (Spanish wikipedia about Gila.. is clear). later because he lived (and earned money) living in Francois Spain.... something impossible in Soviet Union or in Turkey or in Finland or in Hungary....right? and he was popular in Spain (TV) under Franco´s regimen.. and becuase if he went to America it was because Franco accepted.. you can ask.. how much difficult was for Russians, Poles, Germans, cubans, etc to run from their countries out.... (Your theory to compare Franco to Stalin or any other Red Dictator is not running).

Well you have just contradicted yourself and terms like Crusade, Red-demons and Hidalgos that your are far from impartial on the subject
not me, Kevin.. the own British named Crusade the war in Spain.... it was Mr Jerrold who said Franco is the "new Saint George"...(not me) and as you well know (because you can read in Keene´s book) a the Archbishop Mr Arthur Hinsley (Catholic) said Franco was the "White Knigh" fights Demon, the Beast, the Antichrist, the 666 (not my words but Hinsley ones)... Hinsley had a portrait of Franco in his office til his death.. for him.. Franco was the Best man on Earth after Christ!

Crusade was the name used by the British Ambassador in Spain, Sir Henry Chilton, who stablished the Embassy far from Madrid... In Saint Jean Pied de Port in France. This man supported Franco in everything... for example... he delayed visas as much as possible for red passports, however he gave Visa to eveybody came with a simple paper (not passport) from Burgos!... he supported so much to Franco that some people in Foreing Office thought more than a British Ambassador he was a Francoist Activist!

I agree... I accept your theory many international brigades were idealist...but also you can understand many others in White Side were too idealist.... you can be sure nor Chilton nor Duke of Wellington supported Franco because they were paid by the galician general (Duke Welllington sent money for the National Spain... to buy trucks and for children).... or what do you think about that Australian boy from Adelaide.... travelled paid by his own... from Adelaide to Burgos!!!! Today... in 2019... it would be a very hard travell... Adelaide - Sydney - London - Madrid - Burgos.... Can you imagine in 1936? And he wrote.. he cried as a Child when he saw Burgos Cathedral.... and the National Army, described as "Christ in Action"...




Johnincornwall.. is right.... as usually... these years 1920 and 1930 were full of young idealists ... and he is right....Nor Franco was "alone" nor Franco "produced" the War..... at least, the Half of Spain was with him! (not my words but socialist Don Julian Besteiro and I type "Don" because this socialist really was a gentleman).

Dear kevin,
That's simply not true--- the most common reason given was that they believed they were fighting against Fascism, that may have been naïve and many at the time did not understand what the Soviet Union actually was or perhaps what was actually going on in Spain that however could equally apply to those volunteers on the nationalist side.
That´s simply True. International brigades were created, organized and funded by Josef Stalin´s Soviet Union.... it is not opinion but a fact. (Link in English Language). Intenational Brigade were created by Politburo decision. Maybe some British Teenagers... as idealistic as they were blinded by their Marxist religion they didn't realize it ... but they were puppets controlled and used by Stalin ... I am sure you are so much intelligent not to be manipulated by Stalin as the British fought in the Red side in Spain!. George Orwell was so Intelligent he undestood he was manipulated by Reds in Spain....

Orwell and Hemmingway in the Spanish Red Army



And here... British Communist in Spain 1937 (between them a woman)



Idealists? Maybe.. in any case... used by STALIN!!!!

I don't 'support' the 'Red' side what a childish notion
Very glad to know this... for a moment Ithought you were a Stalin, Mao or Lenin supporter.

About elections in 1936 only one book written.... it was a right victory (and in the book we can read and watching evidences...manipulated acts in favour Popular Front).

I would question the % you quote and sorry the "...hoolingans and hoodies today...." comment is just foolish, trying to be provocative or is it simple arrogance?
No, simply I tried to say people with education, principles, religion etc supported the White Side....

Regards,

Civil War was history till 2004.. from 2004 it is a political issue.. sorry because I am sure you didn´t know.
 
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