How the Great Pyramid was built

Oct 2009
3,515
San Diego
#51
I'll admit that for a short time back in the days I did think there was something in this transposition of images on some of the walls at Karnak, before realizing it was hokum. That's the danger of Lubicz, he actually knew his onions and did good work at Karnak, so in youthfull naivety you at first don't see the hokum elements for what they are. I read Daniken when I was about fourteen and thought he had nailed it, oh well....
I read Daniken when I was a teen, too- and i looked at everything from the point of view of whether it COULD depict space aliens... but then, I just could not get over the fact these ancient cultures never DID a single thing that required anything more sophisticated than ropes, rocks, and time.... for me the cincher was that egyptian illustration showing them moving a colossus- On a wooden sled- with a few hundred guys pulling on ropes. You would have thought that the space aliens might have clued them into to something as low tech as the Wheel - or a Winch. I mean- all an ancient would have had to see is ONE wheel, and they would have gotten the concept.

And then I considered that in the ancient world- they had no books, no TV, no radio nor record players... no Angry Birds nor Fortnight... no surfing, jet skiing, snowboarding, skateboarding or any other form of time killing diversions.

They had millions of people, and those people had nothing BUT time on their hands... plenty of time to bang out a granite obelisk using nothing but a harder rock.


What gets me is that Disinforming people has become a whole industry- from the Flat earthers who don't really think the earth is flat, but are happy to monetize a Utube channel making silly claims... to the "ufologists" who figured out how to turn credulity into cash thru book deals and appearance fees.

The History channel used to have actual HISTORY content on it... ( sure- 80% about hitler...but real history ) Today, it 3/4 make believe lunacy teaching its viewers how to be unable to tell shinola from sh- ows on their channel.
 
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Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#52
@specul8

"Like I said earlier, they have found 'railway tracks' made of wood ; the 'sleepers' lay on the sand or ground, the 'rails' are long wooden beams and the rollers run along the rails ."

Sorry, missed that.

Any idea roughly how much wood? Sounds like a lot. Wouldn't such need to be hardwood? From whence would it have come? It's a nifty hypothesis.



"Mercury has to be ever near Isis '" ... " without Mercury neither Isis nor Osiris can accomplish anything " .... 'cryptic hermetic stuff ' , but with inner meaning that can be helpfully applied ."

Sorry, don't understand. What is the source for that claim? That sounds like an astrological claim.(ie woo) There was no such thing as just astronomy when the tombs were built. Magic and religion could not be separated from virtually all kinds of Egyptian knowledge and beliefs. Any symbolism needs to be viewed with great care

The comments about Colin Wilson are fair enough. As I said, he was a believer. I think I read that book around 1974. His books have the common flaws of the autodidact.
 
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specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,117
Australia
#53
@specul8

"Like I said earlier, they have found 'railway tracks' made of wood ; the 'sleepers' lay on the sand or ground, the 'rails' are long wooden beams and the rollers run along the rails ."

Sorry, missed that.

Any idea roughly how much wood? Sounds like a lot. Wouldn't such need to be hardwood? From whence would it have come? It's a nifty hypothesis.
Its in the doco about 'Merer's Boat' .... based on his diary and archaeological finds.

Diary of Merer - Wikipedia . Its a short piece of track and doesnt exclude other ways of moving blocks. It was, I think, in the area of a storage cave they found a disassembled boat in.

Also,

" The log book of Inspector Merer from Wadi al Jarf and the pyramid of Cheops / Khufu.

So now we know how the stones were transported to build the pyramids of Egypt!! They were moved by boat. We know now this, thanks to a discovery in 2013 of a papyrus, in some boat storage caves on the Red Sea. "

The log book of Inspector Merer from Wadi al Jarf and the pyramid of Cheops / Khufu

Sorry I cant track down the actual tv doco, it didnt come up in google search. I think it was SBS (tv) .


"Mercury has to be ever near Isis '" ... " without Mercury neither Isis nor Osiris can accomplish anything " .... 'cryptic hermetic stuff ' , but with inner meaning that can be helpfully applied ."

Sorry, don't understand.
Its a basic 'triplicate' ; two 'extensions' with a modifier . Isis / Orisis is the 'opposing pair' and Mercury is the modifier . It is a pattern ( with an extension to a 4th principle , or a 'result' , all through nature. It shpws up in all sorts of things ; the 3 basic drives of human psychology, in religion, everything from Father Son Holy Spirit to the 'Three Gunas' of Hinduism and the Yin Yang Dao of Taoism. In alchemy it is represented as Sulfur Salt and Mercury. In color, red blue yellow. (I won't go on too much, off topic but I have a paper listing about 6 pages of these, with explanations, but too OT to go on too much about it here. )

To put it VERY simply the primal pair could be husband and wife and Mercury would be the marriage councilor . Mars and Venus ... (just see them as symbols representing a concept - thats the old way of seeing things, they are all inter related in 'fields' - they are not just planets , or Gods , they are BOTH planets and Gods and , in a way, all the concepts and more listed above ) ... are volatile, and reactive and a product of the emotions . Mercury is modifying, and responsive and a product of the intellect.

Another way is to see it as

AIR
( Mercury )

FIRE WATER
(Mars) (Venus)

If one can not ' get Mercury happening ' in times of stress, trouble, argument, any two opposing forces, etc. it usually results in no resolve. Mercury is like the process of stopping, taking a deep breath, counting to 10 , calming down the emotions and allowing a space for the intellect and reason.



What is the source for that claim?
All of the above. Plus what is in my paper. Actually, I recently picked up another example of this 3 - 4 'law' here in the Asian History forum, that I had not realised before , in Vedanta.


That sounds like an astrological claim.(ie woo)
Considering one aspect of astrology is the observation of planets from a geocentric perspective (ie, what we see from here ) the principle holds in astronomy as well, Venus (Isis) and Mercury (Mercury) 's orbits are close to each other.

(Astrology is also a good example of the 3 : 4 principle . 12 signs in 4 elements, each via 3 modes. ( I am tempted to get into the history of base 12 counting as well , but I won't :D )

Its 'woo' depending on how some use it. If it is a practical thing, that can be shown to be in nature and physics ( the unified first 3 'forces' and our inability {s yet ? } to unify all four by including gravity) and it can be used in a tangible way to improve one's understanding and, in operation, improve one's life, then IMO it aint woo .


There was no such thing as just astronomy when the tombs were built. Magic and religion could not be separated from virtually all kinds of Egyptian knowledge and beliefs. Any symbolism needs to be viewed with great care
Its still similar in hermetic thought , all things are related in a 'field of operation' . This has eventually passed down to us and survives in pop forms , like birth stones and such . The opposite, a dualistic division between the 'real' and the 'ideal' started to enter Euro consciousness around 1400 and was well set in after 1700.

The non-dual approach was very strong in some Aboriginal cultures - no distinction between 'the material world' and the 'spiritual realm' .

The Egyptians concept of 'neteru' might be helpful , where each neter 'rules over' a 'field of correspondences ' .

I would say, yes, view them with care, but also with penetrative insight fueled by years of study in relevant related fields ( cultural anthropology - to get a cross-reference to many varied cultures and peoples , mythology, history of hermetics, etc . )

The comments about Colin Wilson are fair enough. As I said, he was a believer. I think I read that book around 1974. His books have the common flaws of the autodidact.
There are MUCH better books than his to get a handle on all this ;

https://www.amazon.com/Three-Occult-Philosophy-Llewellyns-Sourcebook/dp/0875428320

The Philosophers’ Secret Fire: A History of the Imagination by Patrick Harpur

and for an overview of the change in western consciousness ( just reading CH 1 will create a great base of comprehension) :

The Origins Of Modern Science 1300-1800 : H.Butterfield : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#54
@specul8

I've read the Secret Fire, and some reading fair bit about Sufis, both privately and at university...

We went from "they have found 'railway tracks' made of wood ; the 'sleepers' lay on the sand or ground, the 'rails' are long wooden beams and the rollers run along the rails ." to " It's a short piece of track and doesn't exclude other ways of moving blocks"'. Hardly conclusive evidence


'Hermetic though and alchemy both pre science nonsense.. As is the four elements view of the world.

Astrology: I spent over 5 years as a practicing astrologer. kept investigating, kept written records of all charts cast and my interpretations, and followed them up. another pseudo science.

I also have a degree with a double major in Social Anthropology.

The four elements are not science, they are also pre science ,and of limited value.

Sorry, I don't accept the 'great knowledge of the ancients' nonsense. Your post is long on supposition and short on facts .

Bored now.
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,117
Australia
#56
@specul8

I've read the Secret Fire, and some reading fair bit about Sufis, both privately and at university...

We went from "they have found 'railway tracks' made of wood ; the 'sleepers' lay on the sand or ground, the 'rails' are long wooden beams and the rollers run along the rails ." to " It's a short piece of track and doesn't exclude other ways of moving blocks"'. Hardly conclusive evidence
? Hardly conclusive evidence of what ?

They are just statements of findings . If any conclusions might be drawn we can say;

* we have depictions of moving block / statues over ground / sand on types of 'sleds' , some show a liquid being pored on the sand / ground in front of the sled.

* We have some physical evidence (remains ) of building ramps around pyramids.

* We have scans showing the suggestion of internal ramps in TGP.

* We have physical evidence of 'trackwork' to move blocks

- all of these , I assume, would be for relativity short distances -

* and we have first hand account from Merer that a significant amount of block moving and especially ' site delivery' via water and boats.

I am not sure what conclusion you are seeking ? If it is an overall one method of moving large heavy stone blocks / statues, I dont think there is one, it was a combination of techniques, depending on circumstances.

'Hermetic though and alchemy both pre science nonsense.. As is the four elements view of the world.
IMO things are NOT nonsense if they contain tools or information that develops and improves one's self and life.

Astrology: I spent over 5 years as a practicing astrologer. kept investigating, kept written records of all charts cast and my interpretations, and followed them up. another pseudo science.
I am assuming you got up in 'interpretive astrology' ? Same with tarot; some moder decks have a good and valid philosophy and 'working system' in them. Yet most use them for the mundane purpose of fortune telling .... and worse !

I think you are viewing these things just one way ..... I too threw out 'nonsense hermetic thought ' and 'nonsense alchemy' , I just didnt throw out the baby with the bath water .

I also have a degree with a double major in Social Anthropology.
Good ! Then you would be able to see, that when studying man, his cultures and societies, all over locations and times, such understandings are valuable .

Its a common reaction actually , often when trying to explain to people WHY people thought the way they used to ,' magically and hermetically' I would show the old schema of ' Anima Mundi' with earth at the center , then the SPHERE of the Moon , then the planets, then the stars then the angels, etc . Some reactive types then mock and complain it is rubbish ! " The solar system isnt like that ! Nonsense ! "

They have missed the WHOLE POINT . I am not advocating or pushing anything here .... I am more saying ; this is why some things are they way they where / are . I do admit that is a rather unusual 'Mercurial' method :)

Most fokks wanna argue and bicker and insist there is one solution - the 'Mars / Venus' emotive thing .


The four elements are not science, they are also pre science ,and of limited value.
I am not touting them as science . Perhaps they where an aspect of 'Hermetic Science' / theory.

They are concept of limited value - but the limit is high . They can give some GREAT value. I can demonstart that . But not here.... apparently I am boring people ?
Sorry, I don't accept the 'great knowledge of the ancients' nonsense. Your post is long on supposition and short on facts .
Thats a pity as 'the ancients' had a lot of knowledge . I think we are still living in mind sets a lot of them set up . But people tend to think where they HAVE ended up is just 'what it is' . Surely you must acknowledge the input of many ancients , including the Greek Philosophers ?

I can fill several pages with back up facts, but this is off topic, and besides, you are bored ALREADY ! ... and you also need to read links provided, there are lots of supporting facts in there ! But, if this is a handwave dismissal of the whole ttopic .... whatever - I am used to that too.



Okay . But try Ch 1 of "The origins of Modern Science " .... for an understanding, that is ..... not to 'prove' anything .
 
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Mar 2015
845
Europe
#57
I recently watched a documentary on NG that for the first time really impressed me with a new theory

Based on remains of broken pyramids, the Great Pyramid might was filled with debris and rubbish, the stone blocks being just the inner and outer parts

However, considering there's no evidence of such procedure in the GP, this is of course just another hypothesi
The more common explanation is that the broken pyramids broke because they were rubbish inside, and Great Pyramid stood because it is blocks deeply.
There is a checking opportunity. Arab robber tunnel. Does it reveal rubbish inside?
The stone blocks are not quite tightly cut to fit, though. Small stones and gypsum are used between the blocks. And while the blocks are equal height in courses, they are noy equal width or length, or even rectangular. See
Stone courses of the Pyramid of Khufu (table and accurate illustration)

Regarding the hauling of blocks: a major feature of Cheops´ Pyramid is that at certain heights, there are stone courses much higher than those below - even at heights high in upper parts of pyramid.
How does Chephren´s Pyramid compare?
How would you offer to explain the features of stone size?
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,117
Australia
#58
I thought the GP DID have a lot of rubble in its interior ? Thats where all the 'chippings' and detritus went - otherwise we have a huge mountain of that too .

I think pyramids 'broke' for different reasons, depending on the pyramid . I read a book about form an engineer years back (cant remember name and its gone from book shelf into storage now ) that focused on this.

Take the Meidium Pyramid eg

1550695250897.png

It looks like the core was stable and not full of rubbish, it appears the outer casing collapsed .

Regarding stone size - Is it easier and less labor to cut one huge block or many small ones ? I would say go for the maximum, less cutting. If it breaks or faults are found then it would be cut into smaller pieces. This might depend on what is found at the quarry as they work into and down through the layers of stone ?
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,117
Australia
#59
People keep citing ; " The blocks are so well placed you cant fir a razor blade between them . And marvelling about other stuff !

" Not only are the backing stones irregular, they are also progressively smaller toward the top. Behind the backing stones, the core stones are actually even more irregular. We know this because, in the 1830s, Howard Vyse blasted a hole in the center of the south side of Khufu's's Pyramid while looking for another entrance. This wound in the pyramid can still be seen today, and in it, we can see how the builders dumped great globs of mortar and stone rubble in wide spaces between the stones. Here, there are big blocks, small chunks of rock, wedge shaped pieces, oval and trapezoidal pieces, as well as smaller stone fragments jammed into spaces as wide as 22 centimeters between larger blocks.

Higher up, the core is made up of very rough, irregular stones. The upper third of the pyramid core appears to be stone blocks in regular stepped courses, but on closer inspection, the heights of these steps range from ninety centimeters to 1.20 meters, and the widths of the steps vary from 23 centimeters to a meter.

Just as in the case of Khufu's's Pyramid, that of Khafre's core is made up of loose, irregular fill.

There are seams and gaps in the stepped core blocks, and through these we can see limestone chips and rubble.

Great Pyramid Cores
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,117
Australia
#60
That SBS doco on pyramid building was on again last night ; ' Secrets of the Pyramids' . It was more informative than I recalled in my earlier post here ;
A doco on tv " ........ (some name ) 's Boat " ('Secrets of the Pyramids ) - a recently discovered diary of a boat 'captain' who used to haul building blocks showed; a reconstruction of the boat (mazing, no nails screws or 'puzzle joints' - it was drilled and tied together ), they found a disassembled boat in a cave and near where the stones where quarried the remains of a wooden 'track' to take wooden rollers .

I am not suggesting this was the only method, but it is something we have evidence of.
They showed the (world's oldest ) sea port / artificial harbor at Wadi al Jarf on the Red Sea . There was a block sitting on the remains of some decayed wooden rails. * They also said they had found some rollers. Mark Lehner showed the route that delivered blocks at the GP site would have taken from the dock to the pyramid. They put a block on a sed and a large amount of people started pulling the ropes, nt very successfully then the rope broke.

Next they tried what they found at Wadi el Jarf, laid down boards , 'rails' on the sand and pulled the sled along them, better. Then they put thin wooden rollers between the rails and the sled and the block was moving along at a good rate.

*

1551044125687.png

rails ^ under left block
 
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