How the Nazis Won World War 2 - Alternate History

Oct 2018
721
Adelaide south Australia
#11
Fascinating thread.

Have you read Ken Deighton's Book "SSGB". The Brits made a recent min series, it may it may be on Netflix. Good TV series on parallel worlds : "Sliders'

Interesting alternative history film with flawed plot : "Fatherland" 1994. Rutger Hauer

I've always thought the Nazis could have won WW2. IF they had invaded England no later than1940 and then then STOPPED. Spent the next decade at least consolidating their European conquests NOT going to war with the US or Russia, remaining neutral with Japan. Yeah, unlikely, Hitler was no military genius, to understate. Also I think Germany had a war economy could not simply stop.

As said above a range of reasons; one of which was anti semitism , taken to the ghastly conclusion of the Holocaust. The Holocaust continued to the end of the war, using resources which Germany could not afford. Perhaps more so was the loss of of an entire class of intellectuals and scientists.Eg what would have happened if Einstein had remained in Germany and worked for the Nazis?

The bomb in the hands of the Nazis does not bear thinking about That would have had no qualms about using it, especially against the Untermenschen , the slavs, starting with Russia .
 
Jan 2018
137
Canada
#12
Fascinating thread.

Have you read Ken Deighton's Book "SSGB". The Brits made a recent min series, it may it may be on Netflix. Good TV series on parallel worlds : "Sliders'

Interesting alternative history film with flawed plot : "Fatherland" 1994. Rutger Hauer
I haven't read that particular book, but it looks quite interesting. The idea of Nazis running the show in Britain is just so delightfully bizarre, it can't help but get your imagination going. Its like a trippy episode of Dr. Who :zany:

There would be a major clash of cultures, and both Britain and Germany would be changed by the experience, undoubtedly. The Nazis would try to run some social engineering and change the populations beliefs to something more in line with their own thinking.

Exerting armed control over Brittania would require a major investment on the part of Germany, but it would also remove one of the greatest limits to their expansion: The Royal Navy. The only major enemy left would be the Soviet Union. I have to wonder how long Hitler would wait before he got fascist Britain to join Germany in their war against communism?

I've always thought the Nazis could have won WW2. IF they had invaded England no later than1940 and then then STOPPED. Spent the next decade at least consolidating their European conquests NOT going to war with the US or Russia, remaining neutral with Japan. Yeah, unlikely, Hitler was no military genius, to understate. Also I think Germany had a war economy could not simply stop.
I can personally see a few different ways the Nazi regime could have potentially survived the war. If they had embarked on a Mediterranean strategy in 1941, that could have hurt Britain enough for them agree to a white peace. If they had done better against the Soviet Union, Germany might have been able to squeak out a victory in 1943 or so. Or, alternatively, they could have made peace with them after their invasion bogged down. (Stalin actually thought about extending a peace offer, in the period after Stalingrad but before Kursk)

As said above a range of reasons; one of which was anti semitism , taken to the ghastly conclusion of the Holocaust. The Holocaust continued to the end of the war, using resources which Germany could not afford. Perhaps more so was the loss of of an entire class of intellectuals and scientists.Eg what would have happened if Einstein had remained in Germany and worked for the Nazis?

The bomb in the hands of the Nazis does not bear thinking about That would have had no qualms about using it, especially against the Untermenschen , the slavs, starting with Russia .
True, but anti-semitism is one of the things that made the Nazi ideology so domestically appealing within Germany itself. People wanted a scapegoat to blame the loss of the great war on, the Versailles treaty, the depression, and the Weimar degeneracy. Anti-semitism was quite strong in central and eastern Europe. Nazism had alot of sympathisers there.

The Germans made alot of mistakes with their nuclear program, beyond scaring away the intelligentsia prior to the war. The biggest error was relinquishing the Armys control of the Uranverein, and allowing it to fall under the control of the Reich Research Council. Thats what led to the fatal fragmentation of effort, chronic underfunding, and bad direction.

It would be very scary if they ever got a bomb, though! The question you have to ask is, are the Nazis even capable of understanding the concept of mutually assured destruction? Their (facile) conception of war is that no matter how destructive it is, someone must eventually emerge the victor. This might lead them to the belief that nuclear wars can actually be won, the idiots :lol:
 
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Likes: Black Horse
Oct 2018
721
Adelaide south Australia
#13
@PlasmaTorch ;

good post, thanks.

There is also the rather strange Phillip K Dick's story "The Man In The High Castle". The series is currently on Netflix ,I think.

Like a lot of Dick's stuff, its's a bit weird.

The Man in the High Castle (1962) is an alternate history novel by American writer Philip K. Dick. Set in 1962, fifteen years after an alternative ending to World War II, the novel concerns intrigues between the victorious Axis Powers—primarily, Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany—as they rule over the former United States, as well as daily life under the resulting totalitarian rule. The Man in the High Castle won the Hugo Award for Best Novel in 1963. Beginning in 2015, the book was adapted as a multi-season TV series, with Dick's daughter, Isa Dick Hackett, serving as one of the show's producers

The Man in the High Castle - Wikipedia
 
Jan 2018
137
Canada
#14
Chapter 2, Part 1

April 23, 1941
Monichkirchen, Austria

Hitler and Halder were both on the offensive against the time travelers. The Fuhrer was unconvinced by their story, and he wasn't making his thoughts a secret.

'For all we know, the British have spys in all these theaters of war and are sending you the information by radio as they happen. Or maybe they planned these actions to take place in advance, and then send you in to play the fortune teller.' He swept a dismissive hand in their direction.

'Please, think about what you're saying,' Theodor said reasonably. 'Most of the events weren't set into motion by the British. They don't control what the Iraqi leaders do, they can't decide when a Greek dreadnought will be sunk. Its just not plausible.'

Halder was unimpressed. 'Don't be so sure of that. Those ships could be rigged with demolition charges to sink at the required time. The Iraqi government could be infiltrated. There are too many variables for us to account for. You're asking us to take your story at face value, and its just not possible.'

'My thoughts exactly. You say you are from the future, but none of the information you've given us proves that. At least not to my satisfaction. I am entrusted with the fate of an entire nation, which is being tested in the flames of a world war. I cannot afford to place my trust in some lunatic stranger who claims to be from the future!' Hitler intoned.

'I understand the position you're in. I know that the concept of time travel seems crazy to you...' But before he could go on, Lukas was interrupted.

'It isn't just crazy, its logically impossible. Time travel is just some hokum dreamt up by H.G. Wells. If you told me you traveled from Mars, I would be more inclined to believe you.' The Dictator said.

'I have an overwhelming amount of evidence to prove my story.' A silence filled the room, and only the ticking of a clock could be heard

It reminded Lukas unpleasantly of how just how lost he was. Living in a time that wasn't his own. A reality that wasn't even his own. But that was exactly what he'd wanted. To get away from the dystopian future he once called home. A world where civilisation was overrun by 3rd world mongrels...

Hitler leaned back into his leather chair, releasing a sigh. 'Alright. Show me your proof. I don't think you can convince me, but you're welcome to try.'

Theodor glanced over at Lukas, the faintest trace of a smile on his face. This is what they had been waiting for. A chance to make their case to the leader of Germany, and convince him that they were telling the truth. Theodor had something that would shake the Fuhrer out of his complacency.

'With your permission, my Fuhrer.' He reached into his pocket and produced a strange electronic device. 'The best proof I can give you is the hardware I carry with me. In my world, technology has improved a great deal over anything that exists in this time.'

Theodor flaunted the gadget, catching their attention.

'What the hell is that?' Halder asked, curious.

'That had better not be some kindof weapon. I'll call my guards the instant you try anything suspicious.' Hitler warned.

'This is no weapon. Its called a computer, and what it can do is nothing short of amazing.' Theodor pressed a button, turning it on. The device emitted a beep, and the screen glowed into life. Hitler and Halder gaped at it, seeing a message.

It read: 'Guten tag, Herr Hitler. History is about to change. The question is, are you ready for it?'

The leader of Germany stared at this strange device, unsure of how to react. He felt an edge of worry creep into his consciousness. What strange technology was this, he wondered. Finally peeling his eyes off of the computer, he looked over at Theodor.

'What exactly does it do? You say its a computer, but it fits in the palm of your hand. And it has a screen like a television set.' Hitler asked.

'There are different kinds of computers. This one is called an iphone. You can use it to call people anywhere around the world, but it does other tasks too. You can access a digital library we call the internet. And you can use it to take pictures.' Lukas said.

'I beg your pardon? You mean to tell me that this device is both a computer, a phone, and a camera? How is that possible?' Halder demanded, incredulous. 'And whats all this about a digital library? This thing lets you read books, too?'

'As I said, its a remarkable device. The iphone uses technology that is beyond the understanding of modern day science. But in our time, its nothing special. You can buy it at convenience stores for a modest price.' Lukas spoke up this time.

'I don't believe that. If you can read books on this device, then show me!' The Fuhrer demanded.

'Of course, my Fuhrer. Here, I'll pick out a book. Its one you've read before.' Theodor touched the display on the iphone, bringing up a data file.

He extended his arm, offering it for Hitler to examine. Grasping it carefully, he brought the iphone in front of him and read the words. Realisation dawned on his face. The book he looked at was his own work, Mein Kampf. Theodor helped him flip through the pages, and the dictaror was astonished to see his book rendered into such an alien format. From his chair, he stared at Theodor in disbelief.

The uptimer took advantage of his state, and pressed his advantage. 'There is one other feature I would like to show you. The iphone can store not just books, but videos as well. I actually have an audio recording of one of your speechs, Herr Hitler. It was an address you made in front of the Bundestag, about the invasion of the USSR.'

'I've never made any such speech!' Hitler sputtered, turning red.

'No, but you will. This address took place in October of 1941. Would you like to hear it?' Theodor asked.

'How can you record a speech on such a tiny machine? I'm guessing you don't use vinyl discs?' Halder asked, raising an eyebrow.

The time travelers smiled at this, and Lukas answered. 'No, not at all. Smart phones use transistors, just like everything else we have. You can actually fit millions of them onto a chip thats the size of a postage stamp. But come, lets listen to this recording. I think it will be interesting for you to hear.'

Lukas took the iphone from his friend, and played the audio file in question. The speaking voice clearly belonged to Hitler. ''On the morning of June 22, this greatest struggle in the history of the world began. Since then, three-and-a-half months have passed. Today, I can state: everything since has gone according to plan. Whatever surprises the individual soldier or troop may have had, the leadership never for a second allowed the initiative to be taken from it during this time.''

The recorded speech continued. ''I say this here today because I may say today that this opponent has already broken down and will never rise again! There was a power massed against Europe, of which most people regrettably had no idea and of which many today still have no idea. This could have become a second Mongolian invasion by a new Genghis Khan.'' After that, the recording faded away into silence.

Both Hitler and Halder were staring at the smartphone. They couldn't believe what was happening. It wasn't just the strange technology that was vexing the military men, of course: It was the revelation that these strangers truly were from another world.

'Could it really be?...' Hitler whispered, his mind racing.

'Yes. We ARE from the future. And thats why we need to talk to you about the war.' Lukas said.

The Fuhrers gaze wandered around the compartment, as he was lost in thought. Finally, he focused on the two men standing before him. Swallowing his disbelief and his pride, Hitler decided to give them a chance to tell their story.

'All right. Lets say that I choose to believe you, for just a few minutes. What sortof things can you tell me about the war? You said you came from decades in the future, so you must know everything that happened. Right?' Lukas nodded emphatically, and Hitler continued.

'In that case, the first thing I need to know is whether or not Operation Barbarossa was successful. We've been planning the invasion for the past few months, and its been a very stressful affair. The outcome of this campaign will decide the entire course of the war.'

Well ****, Lukas thought. He had been hoping to leave this part for last, since it was the most distressing news he would have to present. But here it was at the forefront, right at the start of the conversation. How to break the news properly?

'Thats a difficult question to answer, and its going to be tough for you to hear. As you know, the plan devised by General Marcks was based on the assumption that the bulk of the Red Army could be destroyed in the first three weeks of the campaign. This phase of the fighting went very well for the Wehrmacht, and they succeeded in destroying most of the forces near the border. The problem was that the Red Army had reserve forces stationed hundreds of miles away, where they were safe from the fighting. A force of about 50 divisions, to the east of Minsk.'

Hitler and Halder were tense, and silent. Theodor observed the conversation from a distance.

'The Abwehr and other agencys did not know of the existence of this reserve echelon, and the Wehrmacht only found out when they ran smack into the middle of them. The Soviet forces were so strong that they had to be destroyed with another costly encirclement operation. The Wehrmacht succeeded, but the time spent fighting this battle enabled the Red Army to move more reserve forces into position. By this time, events had moved far away from the Marcks plan. The campaign was running behind schedule, and the Generals were arguing with you over command.' Lukas said, looking directly at Hitler.
 
Jan 2018
137
Canada
#15
Chapter 2, Part 2

'How many weeks into the invasion was this? How much progress had the Wehrmacht made by then? In miles, I mean.' The Fuhrer demanded.

'It was early to mid August by then. Smolensk had already been captured, and there were disputes about what the Armys next priority should be. The Generals wanted to go straight to Moscow, while you, Herr Hitler, wanted to secure the Ukraine. You eventually won the argument, and sent the Wehrmacht to destroy the Kiev salient. It was a tremendous victory that badly hurt the Red Army, and enabled the Wehrmacht to continue advancing on all fronts.'

Lukas was saying this merely to soothe Hitlers overgrown ego: There had always been questions about the wisdom and merits of that particular decision. He wasn't here to play the academic, though. He needed to get on the dictators good side, and tell him that he had been right, and the Generals were wrong. Hitler nodded fractionally, accepting the complement. Thus heartened, Lukas continued.

'But there was a problem. The Armys rapid advance had overstretched their supply lines, and the constant fighting left them on the edge of exhaustion. Not enough men, not enough supplys. Worse yet, winter was starting to set in. But the Generals ignored all of this, and kept pushing on with reckless abandon. They thought victory was waiting for them in Moscow, but it was not to be. The Soviets launched a huge counter-attack and drove them back. It was the first real defeat Germany suffered in the war, and it ended any hope for victory in the east.' Lukas finished his recounting.

Hitler was as tense as a statue. Halder looked like a deflated balloon. They both took a while to mull over what had been said. Hitler was the first to speak.

'This is most disconcerting. The fact that the Red Army was able to continue fighting all the way from the borders to their capital is inconceivable to me. The number of men they must have mobilised to do this... The amount of willpower and determination... How was this possible?' The Fuhrer asked.

'There were major intelligence failures leading up to the invasion. I imagine that the Abwehr briefed you on this not too long ago. They estimated that the Soviets had about 200 divisions, and would be able to mobilise another 300 divisions in 6 months. But in fact, the Red Army was far more formidable. By the time the Reich invaded, they had about 300 divisions, and were able to mobilise another 550 divisions in 6 months.' Lukas said.

Theodor spoke up once again, adding his voice to the conversation. 'They had 14 million men in cadre organizations that could not only replace any losses the Red Army suffered in battle, but actually allow them to expand to the point they outnumbered the Wehrmacht. There were tremendous armaments programs to keep this force supplied with all the small arms, tanks, and artillery they would ever need, so that they would never experience any shortages.'

Upon hearing this, the blood drained from Hitlers face. It was his worst fear realised. That he had underestimated the communist menace, and dragged Germany into a prolonged war on two fronts. And thats when the real hammer blow hit him. The chilling realisation crept into the center of his mind.

Hitler looked directly at Lukas. 'We didn't win the war, did we? We were defeated...'

'Yes. After the setbacks at Moscow, the war situation deteriorated. Within a few years, the Reich was destroyed.' Lukas confirmed.

Hitler slumped back in his chair and stared at the wall. His skepticism for the time travelers had vanished. Somehow, he knew that what they had told him was the true. Watching from a distance, Theodor almost felt sorry for him. Almost.

General Halder was not taking the news much better. It was not just the knowledge of Germanys defeat that troubled him, but the knowledge that he had been complicit. 'I can't believe the Soviets would keep fighting for all that time. Stalin killed off all their leadership in the purges, their morale is at the lowest its been in years! How could they have endured all these losses and turned back our armys? What kept them going?'

'You forced them into a war of annihilation, General. You and the Fuhrer. They didn't keep fighting out of a love for communism or Stalin. They fought because you gave them no choice. You would not negotiate with them, and you would not accept their surrender. If the Soviets capitulated, they would be exterminated en masse. This was the official policy of the Wehrmacht.'

Halder jerked in surprise, realising what Lukas was getting at. 'You mean Generalplan Ost? Thats just a proposal, nothing more!'

'And yet, you are already laying the groundwork for it. The Einsatzgruppen formations have already been created. The 'anti-bandit' operations have already been planned. And more importantly, you have already prepared the troops for an ideological war. Not just against Jews or communists, which is sensible. But for a war against Slavs. The groups who are deemed racially inferior by the eugenicists.' Lukas said.

Halder dug his heels in, not liking this conversation one bit. Hitler finally looked up from his chair.

'That has nothing to do with the army. We do not fight ideological wars, let alone race wars!' Halder insisted.

Lukas tried a different tact. 'How about the SS? Or the Reichskommisariats? They didn't have any objections about a race war. When the Wehrmacht first moved into the Soviet Union, they were greeted by the locals as liberators. They were happy to be rid of the Bolshevists. There was a genuine willingness to accept German rule. But then the SS came in and ruined the mood. They looted, pillaged, raped, and murdered like medievil bandits. They alienated the locals and turned them into our enemys. Who authorised that?'

A pregnant silence filled the room. Lukas realised that he had overstepped his bounds, and spoke out too strongly. Hitler was now glaring at him in anger.

'So you want to play the critic with our policys, is that it? Why don't you tell me what should have been done with all the inhabitants of the east? With the 200 million Slavs who are brainwashed by communism? Do you think we could politely civilise them?' His world had been turned upside down, and now he had a target for his anger.

Lukas was on dangerous ground here. Failing to gain the Dictators trust would probably doom their mission, and put their own lives in immediate jeopardy. He couldn't think of the words to say. Luckily, Theodor stepped in with a level response to the madman.

'Herr Hitler, I know that you see the Slavic population as a potential threat to Germany. Its easy to get hung up on how different they are from us, but think of it this way. Most of the inhabitants of the Soviet Union are living in miserable conditions, and they have nothing but scorn for Stalin and his regime. If you go into the east and act as a liberator to them, think of how much easier the invasion would be! You could assemble a huge force of laborers and auxillary troops, and there also wouldn't be any partisans to deal with.'

Hitler shifted in his chair, annoyed at this comment. 'Why would they want to join us? We have nothing in common with the Slavs, and they are a liability anyway you cut it. If we don't relocate them or exterminate them, then we have to feed them. With food that belongs to the Reich.'

'My contention is that Generalplan Ost is not only cruel, but largely pointless. If you wipe out the Slavic peoples, who will tend to all the crops? Who will perform the menial labor? You might recall that the employment rate in Germany is over 100%. There are too many jobs, and too few workers. Its an insoluble problem, and Himmler made a bad situation worse. Do you know that he is planning to have the railways re-organised to prioritise supply of the extermination camps? Even at the expense of supplying the troops?'

The words had a visible impact: Both Halder and Hitler were surprised. 'I have never heard the like! Are you quite serious?'

'Yes. He was willing to put the war effort in jeopardy in order to pursue his program of mass murder.' Theodor answered sincerely.

The military men looked at each other, trying to gauge the others stance. Halder appeared as if there was something he wanted to say, but couldn't quite work up the courage.

Raising an eyebrow, Hitler asked 'Well, what is it?'

Looking his boss firmly in the eye, Halder took a deep breath. 'My Fuhrer, I and some of the other generals have had misgivings about these liquidation policys. We have worried about what its ramifications might be when put into practise. Last month, you issued an amendment to directive No. 21 which gave the SS unprecedented authority: The right to act without regard for military law.'

Hitler scowled at his subordinate, and Theodor couldn't help but feel a prickle of unease. The fates of millions of people were being decided in this very room. He was at the center of a historical whirlpool.

Halder continued with his speech. 'Can't you see what kindof ground work is being laid here? We're devising a war of extermination where no quarter is given or taken. A war which we cannot win, according to these men! As commander in chief of the army, I think we need a fundamental re-assessment of our policy.'

Well, there it was. Halder was willing to take a stand after all. The danger had passed, and now Hitler was in a tough spot. His plans were in the open and under fire. The dictator wasn't obliged to change anything, of course. But at least now he was being forced to reconsider some of his faulty assumptions. The meeting was starting to go in their favor.

Hitler wearily stood up from the couch, then walked across the train compartment. Staring at a portrait of Otto von Bismarck, he was seemingly lost in thought. At last, he spoke. 'This is going to be a long discussion, isn't it?'
 
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