How was Egypt before the arrival of Hyksos?

Mar 2019
52
Belgium
It seem to me that Egypt was quite primitive before the Hyksos invasion :

-They didn't know how to use bronze
They didn't have boats (I mean those which could navigate on the sea)
- No elaborate weaponry
-No cattle culture
-No knowledge of elaborate trading or commercial exchange
-No real state with a real and centralized administration
-Primitive farming technology
...

Some people like talking about Egypt as a "cradle of civilisation" (I hate this word) even if the majority of it's innovation came from foreigners (Hyksos, Lybians, Ancient Greek/Romans). Did Hyksos bring "civilisation" to Egypt?
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,372
Australia
No, they bought their sheep ;)

No sea boats until the Hyksos ???

Then what where those boats doing by the sea all the way over at Wadi el Jarf .by the Red Sea.. which also contains the most ancient maritime harbor ever found ? By the way , it's dated to 4th Dynasty .

No cattle culture until the Hyksos ?

And the rest of your list ? I'll just make one comment ;




Egypt was the ' cradle of civilization '
 
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Mar 2018
776
UK
A quick google search shows Bronze Egyptians artefacts from 2200 BC, which is quite some time before the Hyksos arrived I believe? I'm also not sure about your other criteria, your use of words like "elaborate", "real" or "primitive" seems to me dangerously close to a no-true-scotsman fallacy. How more complex did Egyptian trade have to be to count as elaborate? They had lapis lazuli from as far as Afghanistan IIRC. They also had war chariots since the old Kingdom. I could go on...

Even without that any of those, I wouldn't classify any culture with an elaborate and complex writing system as primitive.
 

specul8

Ad Honorem
Oct 2016
3,372
Australia
A quick google search shows Bronze Egyptians artefacts from 2200 BC, which is quite some time before the Hyksos arrived I believe? I'm also not sure about your other criteria, your use of words like "elaborate", "real" or "primitive" seems to me dangerously close to a no-true-scotsman fallacy. How more complex did Egyptian trade have to be to count as elaborate? They had lapis lazuli from as far as Afghanistan IIRC. They also had war chariots since the old Kingdom. I could go on...

Even without that any of those, I wouldn't classify any culture with an elaborate and complex writing system as primitive.

Is this a trend here, or did people always do it . I have noticed it more and more lately, it seems to come from people that either have some problem with the people of culture in question. It arises mostly when we compare older cultures (like Australian Aboriginals ) or other prehistory periods ;

" They didnt have proper agriculture ..... there was no complex trade ..... they didnt do x y z 'as we do now' ...... there was no real communication ..... "

:rolleyes:
 
Mar 2018
776
UK
Is this a trend here, or did people always do it . I have noticed it more and more lately, it seems to come from people that either have some problem with the people of culture in question. It arises mostly when we compare older cultures (like Australian Aboriginals ) or other prehistory periods ;

" They didnt have proper agriculture ..... there was no complex trade ..... they didnt do x y z 'as we do now' ...... there was no real communication ..... "

:rolleyes:

These sorts of things are better done comparatively. It's meaningless to ask whether Egyptian agriculture was primitive in 1500 BC without first defining how sophisticated something has to be before it stops being primitive. Compared to it's own later agriculture, yes, it was primitive. But saying that Egyptian agriculture was more advanced in 100 AD than 1500 BC doesn't tell us all that much. It makes a lot more sense to compare it to other cultures at the same time period. Was Egyptian agriculture primitive in 1500 BC compared to Mesapotamian agriculture in 1500 BC? I genuinely have no idea and would like to know, at least this is a well posed question that isn't presented with a strong bias.
 
Mar 2019
1,787
Kansas
Is this a trend here, or did people always do it . I have noticed it more and more lately, it seems to come from people that either have some problem with the people of culture in question. It arises mostly when we compare older cultures (like Australian Aboriginals ) or other prehistory periods ;

" They didnt have proper agriculture ..... there was no complex trade ..... they didnt do x y z 'as we do now' ...... there was no real communication ..... "

:rolleyes:
I think in this instance the OP is arguing that Egypt should not be considered the cradle of civilization because they (in his eyes) did not invent enough stuff.

The reality is quiet the opposite. The ancient Greeks were infatuated with ancient Egypt, in the same way the Romans became infatuated with ancient Greece, in the same way much of western civilization at various times has become infatuated with all three.

And while it can be fair to argue Egypt did not invent certain things such as writing or even the administrative trappings of civilization, there is a clear and direct path linking our world today with what Egypt was.
 

AlpinLuke

Forum Staff
Oct 2011
27,000
Italy, Lago Maggiore
Mah ... usually I don't give audience to similar threads ...

just for accuracy, the Hyksos carried to Egypt ... war horses and war chariots. This was their main contribution to the Egyptian civilization. Before of their arrival Egyptian soldiers walked using donkeys to transport food, water and equipment.

For the rest, the Hyksos learned in Egypt, they absorbed the civilization of KmT.

It was just a Monarch of the Hyksos period [XV dynasty] to make a copy of a well more ancient papyrus ... showing the mathematical skills of Ancient Egyptians: the Rhind Papyrus [well more ancient]. It seems that Hyksos learned also a bit of math in Egypt ...
 

Dan Howard

Ad Honorem
Aug 2014
4,738
Australia
On top of the above, the Hyksos only controlled the eastern Nile Delta and Middle Egypt. Southern Egypt remained entirely under Theban control.