How well is 濟 dynasty known in Chinese history as a descendant to Goguryeo?

Nov 2017
137
US
First of all, I dont know where heylouis is going with this. I never seen pathetic italians butting in on every discussion of british, french, and german history and telling people that their history is written in roman characters. Why you never go on discussion of japanese history and bring up that nihon sagi is written in chinese? oh because japan is big and strong and well respected, while korea seems like a easy target for you to bully? how pathetic. And since we are on the topic of chinese characters, need I remind you that in the archeological findings of Hongshan culture from 4700 BC, which isnlocated in Bohai area stretching from Liaoning to Northern Korea, there was found the ancient symbol for rice, "Mi"?

And the hanzi script was originally believed to be made by the Shang dynasty but archeological findings of the Shang rulers found them to be Dong Yi from the East, not han chinese? I dont even f**king care where the chinese writing system came from. But you have some nerve to be rubbing the Chinese part of chinese script onto every discussion of korean history, that happens to use the writing system used by every other civilization in East Asia... when the origin of hanzi script itself is not as uniquely han chinese in the first place. Its a shared culture. stop being so selfish and open your eyes. There was no such thing as concept of china or korea 5000 years ago. There were just people in manchuria, the middle ground between han china and korea who suddenly thought about creating a better life for themselves and invented writing on pieces of turtle shells, amd this great idea spread first to heartland of china and then to the rest of East Asia, and they didnt know whether their progeny will be fighting over who is using whose characters thousands of years later! so would you please drop it and spend your brain cells on more productive things?

Ok now that we go that out of the way bananaland first accused me of getting the Qi nation from hwanda gogi. There, already, that tells me its not worth discussing anything with you, since you just want to pick a fight rather than explore history, which is what I came here to do. I keep an open mind and im open to all sources of evidence, I have no stake in this matter. Humans are all fundamentally the same. I dont get a high on a specific country being superior to another because countries are lines on the ground and ethnicities are spread over many countries. But obviously some people have an emotional response to certain types of things and need to act condescending.

But Ill give you another chance to return to the world of the sane. So we are settled that Qi nation is real and not a fabrication of your korean nationalist arch enemy boogiemen? Good. Now we can discuss the details. Where did I get Goguryeo from Lee Jeonggi? Well it appears chinese records said he was a goguryeo person. I read from a news article that I think I linked in here but its in korean. It said, that Lee Jeonggi became a successful Tang military commander, and he commanded soldiers that were originally from goguryeo and brought to Yeongju by the Tang, who relocated many goguryeo people. when Lee got in trouble or something, I think his own soldiers mutinied and rescued him. Since the soldiers were a force to be reckoned with, Tang emperor instead forgave Lee and made him the new commander. Since Lee led soldiers that were conscripted from goguryeo refugees, I made the connection that he startef the Qi nation with a force of goguryeo people. Of course it also included other races, but it only makes sense.

Now, I am just as curious about the veracity of this narrative as everyone else. I just want to know if anyone can verify or add to what exactly happened. No one is claiming Korea took over china or anything like that. Lee basically wanted to become another chinese warlord. He didnt claim go be a goguryeo successor lile Dae Jo Yong of Balhae did.

But im also curious how Lee Junggi got from yeongju, Bohai area to shandong in the first place. did he come with an army or alone? did he come as enemies or friend of Tang? How many ships did he take?
 
Apr 2017
285
Northern lands
No one is claiming Korea took over china or anything like that.
It's funny you say that. You probably don't realize that if you actually pressed this point, you would win. As in Korea taking over China and all. To be fair, Koreans probably took over China in pre-Chinese times, when northern China was basically empty. Languages like Chinese are unique to the region, while the descendants of East Asian types span the globe and they don't speak Chinese-like languages. It's clear that they (and even many minorities in China) had adopted the language of non-East Asian groups who had long resided in southern China and China's coastal regions. So if they want to make fun of us for borrowing Chinese script, make fun of them for adopting their speech. That is, if they are willing to see reason and believe it.
 

heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,538
China
First of all, I dont know where heylouis is going with this. I never seen pathetic italians butting in on every discussion of british, french, and german history and telling people that their history is written in roman characters. Why you never go on discussion of japanese history and bring up that nihon sagi is written in chinese? oh because japan is big and strong and well respected, while korea seems like a easy target for you to bully? how pathetic. And since we are on the topic of chinese characters, need I remind you that in the archeological findings of Hongshan culture from 4700 BC, which isnlocated in Bohai area stretching from Liaoning to Northern Korea, there was found the ancient symbol for rice, "Mi"?
because you complain you cannot read chinese.

while here you tell us you read Samguk sagi.

that means you tried and found a translation of Samguk sagi.

it is only a problem of effort you find translations of chinese history books such as tang books.
your complains that you don't read chinese, so you cannot have ideas what chinese history books simply don't stand.
Im just curious what chinese records say about the Qi nation, because I obviously cannot read chinese.
If you learned something new through this discussion, you should consider it a step forward in the pursuit of knowledge
nobody helps you to pursue any knowledge if yourself is NOT pursuing it.

frankly, i don't know what exactly bananasinpajamas is accuse you for, though generally it is like about over exaggeration and ignorance of sources (on which i agree).

finding translations of tang books might be slight difficult in korea, but it is the same issue as Samguk sagi, as they both originally written in chinese, a language now you CANNOT READ.
your problem of "cannot read chinese" only means you don't want to pay efforts to look into sources.
now it is my suggestion: go to the library, properly read the book, and then speak. don't tell us you excuses such as cannot or don't want to read it.

and you'd better stop ridiculous connection between dong yi and koreans. Samguk sagi is written in han chinese, that is what it is known for. don't jump here and jump there for speculation or even conspiracy. it is another but a problem of same essence, your IGNORANCE of sources.
 
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Jun 2014
1,020
Earth
1. So we are settled that Qi nation is real and not a fabrication of your korean nationalist arch enemy boogiemen?

No, not at all. Lee Na (son of Lee Jeonggi), along with three military governors, declared themselves Prince's. Lee Na chose to be Prince of Qi. Very soon after, he apologized to the Emperor and renounced his title. At that point any concept of Qi was gone.

Furthermore, it takes more than a declaration to be a legitimate kingdom. A good example is General Yi, who rebelled against the Goryeo. He desperately sought recognition from the Ming. If he didn't get it, he would just be someone who killed the king of Goryeo. In this case Lee Jeonggi is just a military governor who rebelled.

2. Your details are very very misleading

Your story is that Qi was founded by Goguryeo people (Lee Jeonggi and his Goguryeo troops), and that it was a dynasty, i.e. it lasted for generations, and it was so strong that the Tang had to solicit help from Silla to defeat them after the invaded Chang'an.

This gives the impression that some brave independent Goguryeo people established themselves and persevered against the Tang and screamed "Goguryeo for life!" as they rebelled for generations.

FALSE

1. Lee Jeonggi was said to be a general in the Tang army of Goguryeo descent. No where is it said that he commanded a majority or all Goguryeo soldiers
2. Qi only existed through Lee Na (son of Lee Jeonggi who was already dead) was renounced quickly by Lee Na and he submitted to the emperor quickly
3. Where is it said that Lee Na or Jeonggi invaded Chang'an (show the passage)
4. It could not possibly be a dynasty, as the idea of Qi never made it past Lee Na (not to mention no one recognized Qi besides the 4 governors in rebellion)
5. Where is it stated that Qi invaded Chang'an (show the passage)


3. Like most stories (articles, TV specials, "documentaries") coming from a certain corner of the world, this seems like a complete fabrication based on twisting a small piece of history into a grand tale.

4. But im also curious how Lee Junggi got from yeongju, Bohai area to shandong in the first place.

You answered this yourself. He was relocated by the Tang. Tens of thousands of households, and thus hundreds of thousands of people, were relocated. Most likely it was not a voluntary move.

5. when Lee got in trouble or something, I think his own soldiers mutinied and rescued him. Since the soldiers were a force to be reckoned with, Tang emperor instead forgave Lee and made him the new commander.

Did you read this or is this another assumption? If you read this what is the historical source?

You are confusing Jeonggi with Na.

The emperor gave Na and the others the chance to apologize after the open rebellion by the four military governors. To me it seems more like the Emperor saying "we can do this the easy way or the hard way" and everyone apologized.

For this, they all received some lofty BS titles. Lee Na helped put down a rebellion led by someone who he previously submitted to and followed. For this he received another lofty BS title.
 
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Jun 2014
1,020
Earth
Languages like Chinese are unique to the region, while the descendants of East Asian types span the globe and they don't speak Chinese-like languages. It's clear that they (and even many minorities in China) had adopted the language of non-East Asian groups who had long resided in southern China and China's coastal regions.
What in the H are you talking about?
 
Apr 2017
285
Northern lands
What in the H are you talking about?
The language of China sounds vastly different from the majority of the distant "cousin" tribes associated with the Chinese. There was almost definitely a large para-human influenced population in southern China from whom the ancestors of the Chinese had likely adopted the Chinese language. I surmise that para-humans had difficulties articulating multi-syllable words. (by para-human, I'm referring to groups like Neanderthals)
 
Jun 2014
1,020
Earth
The language of China sounds vastly different from the majority of the distant "cousin" tribes associated with the Chinese. There was almost definitely a large para-human influenced population in southern China from whom the ancestors of the Chinese had likely adopted the Chinese language. I surmise that para-humans had difficulties articulating multi-syllable words. (by para-human, I'm referring to groups like Neanderthals)
I have no idea what "cousin" tribes are or what you are talking about with "para-humans".

The geography along the south and the coast limited travel and created pockets of civilization whereby the language changed. Compare it to what happened with the Jeju island dialect of South Korea. This is opposed to the west and the far north where it was much flatter.

Despite this, all dialects can be traced genetically back to Middle and Old Chinese.
 
Jun 2014
1,020
Earth
In addition to my bulletpoints above, I think the easiest way to draw question to the article you read is that even the idea of an independent Qi did not exist until Li Na. It never existed under his father Lee Jeonggi. It also didn't exist under his son Li Shidao.
 
Sep 2016
597
天下
The geography along the south and the coast limited travel and created pockets of civilization whereby the language changed. Compare it to what happened with the Jeju island dialect of South Korea. This is opposed to the west and the far north where it was much flatter.
The language changed everywhere, not only in the south. The difference between north and south is that due to terrain, the north ended up being more uniform dialectally and ethnically, while more isolated regions of the south underwent changes independently from each other.
 
Nov 2017
137
US
so when we are snubbing me for not being able to read the samguk sagi in its original text, are we pretending that the average chinese person can read traditional chinese script that was used to write history of Tang?

Obviously this thread is hijacked by people who keep trying to defend china from nonexistent accusations of its weakness. i just wanted to discuss the influence of the Qi dynasty, and instead I get people raging about how the dynasty only lasted a certain number of years. I discuss the silla reinforcements and people tell me china wasnt weak so it didnt need reinforcements so the discussion ends here. lol sometimes strong nations ask for reinforcements just to minimize casualties, like USA ask for SK reinforcements for Vietnam. but people here are too proud to discuss anything that could suggest weakness of a chinese dynasty. I shrudder to think what other trajectories this discussion can lead to if we start touching on the topic of Qi army marching onto Tang capital. Goodbye
 
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