How well is 濟 dynasty known in Chinese history as a descendant to Goguryeo?

Jun 2014
1,020
Earth
The language changed everywhere, not only in the south. The difference between north and south is that due to terrain, the north ended up being more uniform dialectally and ethnically, while more isolated regions of the south underwent changes independently from each other.
Where didn't I say it only changed in the north? Anyways let's stick to the topic at hand.
 
Jun 2014
1,020
Earth
so when we are snubbing me for not being able to read the samguk sagi in its original text, are we pretending that the average chinese person can read traditional chinese script that was used to write history of Tang?

Obviously this thread is hijacked by people who keep trying to defend china from nonexistent accusations of its weakness. i just wanted to discuss the influence of the Qi dynasty, and instead I get people raging about how the dynasty only lasted a certain number of years. I discuss the silla reinforcements and people tell me china wasnt weak so it didnt need reinforcements so the discussion ends here. lol sometimes strong nations ask for reinforcements just to minimize casualties, like USA ask for SK reinforcements for Vietnam. but people here are too proud to discuss anything that could suggest weakness of a chinese dynasty. I shrudder to think what other trajectories this discussion can lead to if we start touching on the topic of Qi army marching onto Tang capital. Goodbye
Twisting simple questions as rooted by nationalism and therefore implying they are irrational, when they are simple logical questions such as "why would the Tang need reinforcements against a tiny 'nation' like Qi" is the first thing a rational thinker would do.

Also stating that Qi lasted less than a generation and that NO ONE recognized it aside from the governors who rebelled makes unworthy to be called a nation or kingdom or dynasty.

Pointing out Qi didn't even exist with Jeonggi is also another important hole in the narrative.

Sorry. Words have meanings. You can't inflate and twist a tiny situation into a grand fairy tale when it's not airing on MBC.

You are avoiding simple questions with red herrings.

Once again you are making the assertions and therefore the burden of proof lies upon you.
 
Jun 2014
1,020
Earth
I also want to point out that in all of the rebellions by the Li family throughout the generations, none were motivated by MGGA "Make Goguryeo Great Again". It was all at being displeased one way or another with the emperor.
 
Sep 2016
595
天下
Twisting simple questions as rooted by nationalism and therefore implying they are irrational, when they are simple logical questions such as "why would the Tang need reinforcements against a tiny 'nation' like Qi" is the first thing a rational thinker would do.
Another logical thinker would ask why would Goryeo scholars add the mention of sending relief force to Tang, if they were never asked to do so?

Dezong fought constantly with rebellious Jiedushi. In 783 he was forced to run away from Chang'an when military mutinied and Zhu Ci proclaimed himself an Emperor of Qin, and Li Xilie Emperor of Chu. 30 years later Xianzong was again facing rebellious Jiedushi. Wouldn't it be prudent to call for help to destroy the rebellion while it still is constrained? Anyway, the order to dispatch troops in Samguk Sagi is dated at 11th year 7th month of King Heondeok's reign, which is 819. Li Shidao was killed in the 2nd month of the same year. So, if the order came, then troops were no longer necessary to defeat Li Shidao.
 
Jun 2014
1,020
Earth
Another logical thinker would ask why would Goryeo scholars add the mention of sending relief force to Tang, if they were never asked to do so?
You are missing the point. The point about discussing Silla is that the OP said that Qi was so powerful that the Tang needed to call in Silla to defeat them. So then we asked, did this really happen? Because Li Shidao was simply killed by his own officer and why was it necessary?

Aside from that there is nothing to back up the OP's claims (now we know by his own admission that he was filling in gaps of knowledge with his own storytelling) about the other aspects of the shortlived non-existant Qi kingdom.
 

heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,537
China
so when we are snubbing me for not being able to read the samguk sagi in its original text, are we pretending that the average chinese person can read traditional chinese script that was used to write history of Tang?

Obviously this thread is hijacked by people who keep trying to defend china from nonexistent accusations of its weakness. i just wanted to discuss the influence of the Qi dynasty, and instead I get people raging about how the dynasty only lasted a certain number of years. I discuss the silla reinforcements and people tell me china wasnt weak so it didnt need reinforcements so the discussion ends here. lol sometimes strong nations ask for reinforcements just to minimize casualties, like USA ask for SK reinforcements for Vietnam. but people here are too proud to discuss anything that could suggest weakness of a chinese dynasty. I shrudder to think what other trajectories this discussion can lead to if we start touching on the topic of Qi army marching onto Tang capital. Goodbye
surly original text book of tang is simple for average chinese person to read.
surly traditional chinese is easy for average chinese person to read.

the problem however is not here.
for you, translations are required either on samguk sagi or on book of tang.

reading translations is quite fine, but if you are not trying to find the translations, will the translations come to your door on themselves?

a simple question here, have you actually properly trying to find a translation of book of tang?
before raising up speculations here, have you searched out the sources on yourself?

nobody could help you if you are not helping yourself.

sorry, i have no intention to argue whether the speculations could be possibly true. because you are telling us you can read one translation work(samguk sagi, from chinese to korean/english), but refuse to read another translation work(books of tang, from chinese to korean/english). specially, we all know samguk sagi is written long time after books of tang. the books of tang in fact are the primary sources of samguk sagi.
there is no ground to make a discussion.
 
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Apr 2017
285
Northern lands
I have no idea what "cousin" tribes are or what you are talking about with "para-humans".

The geography along the south and the coast limited travel and created pockets of civilization whereby the language changed. Compare it to what happened with the Jeju island dialect of South Korea. This is opposed to the west and the far north where it was much flatter.

Despite this, all dialects can be traced genetically back to Middle and Old Chinese.
Your cousin tribes as in other homo sapiens, as opposed to parahumans. Chinese language. Influenced by parahumans. Was that too many syllables for you?
 

heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,537
China
anyway, despite samguk sagi is known to have mistaken records, especially on the events far before the author's time period, it still is a history book, not a history novel.

so let us read the proper original text of samguk sagi:

considering about the fact Hyegong of Silla died on 780, while the OP concerns something around 782, the events might just happened in the times of Seondeok of Silla (king during ?-785)

now here is the text:

50 ○宣德王立。姓金氏,讳良相,奈勿王十世孙也。父,海●孝芳;母,金氏四照夫人,圣德王之女也;妃,具足夫人,角干良品之女也。一云义恭阿●之女。大赦。追封父为开圣大王,尊母金氏为贞懿太后,妻为王妃。拜伊●敬信,为上大等,阿●义恭为侍中。改御龙省奉御为卿,又改卿为监。51 ○三二年,春二月,亲祀神宫。秋七月,发使安抚浿江南州郡。52 ○三年,春闰正月,遣使入唐朝贡。二月,王巡幸汉山州,移民户于浿江鎭。秋七月,大阅于始林之原。53 ○四年,春正月,以阿●体信为大谷鎭军主。二月,京都雪三尺。54 ○五年,夏四月,王欲逊位。群臣三上表谏,乃止。55 ○六年,春正月,唐德宗遣户部郞中盖埙,持节册命王,为检校大尉●林州刺史宁海军使新罗王。是月,王寝疾弥留。乃下诏曰:「寡人本惟菲薄,无心大宝,难逃推戴,作其卽位。居位以来,年不顺成,民用穷困,此皆德不符民望,政未合天心。常欲禅让,退居于外,群官百●,每以诚止,未果如意,因循至今。忽●疾疹,不寤不兴。死生有命,顾复何恨?死后,依佛制烧火,散骨东海!」至十三日薨,諡曰宣德。

blabla.....
we search for tang/唐. and we got, in the sixth year of Seondeok, the tang conferred Seondeok with the title of king. (he died soon)

okay, not during this guy's time.

what about the next one?
Wonseong of Silla (?-798)
well, he lived quite long, a lot of events happened, so i extract the tang related words:

2 ○元圣王立。3 ○二年,夏四月,国东雨雹,桑麦皆伤。遣金元全入唐,进奉方物。德宗下诏书曰:「●新罗王金敬信。金元全至,省表及所进奉具悉。卿俗敦信义,志秉贞纯,夙奉邦家,克遵声敎。抚兹藩服,皆●儒风,礼法兴行,封部宁乂,而竭诚向阙,述职无亏。累遣使臣,聿修贡献,虽溟渤遐广,道路悠长,贽币往来,率循旧兴典,忠●益著,嘉叹良深。朕君临万方,作人父母,自中及外,合轨同文,期致太和,共●仁寿。卿宜保安封内,勤恤苍生,永作藩臣,以宁海裔。今赐卿罗锦绫彩等三十匹,衣一副,银●一口,至宜领之;妃锦彩绫罗等二十匹,押金线绣罗裙衣一副,银椀一;大宰相一人衣一副,银●一;次宰相二人各衣一副,银椀各一。卿宜领受分给。夏中盛热,卿比平安好,宰相已下,●存问之。遣书指不多及。」11 ○八年,秋七月,遣使入唐,献美女金井兰,其女国色身香。17 ○十四年,冬十二月二十九日,王薨。

it talked about:
1. 2nd year, payed tribute to tang. tang dezong sent a imperial edict, "Wonseong is a good subject", sort of that...
2. 8th year, sent envoy to tang, a female kim was
submitted (gift).
then 14th year, he died.


but what about others?
eventually, i find this: Heondeok of Silla (?-826)
○宪德王立。○二年,冬十月,遣王子金宪章入唐
○九年,遣王子金张廉,入唐朝贡。
十一年 秋七月,唐●州节度使李师道叛。宪宗将欲讨平,诏遣杨州节度使赵恭,徵发我兵马,王奉●旨,命顺天军将军金雄元,率甲兵三万以助之。
1. 2nd year, sent a prince to tang
2. 9th year, sent a prince to pay tribute to tang
3. 11th year, tang governor Li ShiDao rebelled. tang xianzong ordered the yangzhou governor zhao gong to order us(silla) to send troops. Heondeok followed the order, and sent 30,000 soldiers.


anyway, from this ORIGINAL source, i cannot read what is relevant to a silla's help of troops or any similar events. in fact, well, there is a request for troops. but it is a second hand order that delivered by the yangzhou governor. you really cannot call it a "help".
further more, there is no "yangzhou governor", and no person "zhao gong" in chinese history. there is no idea why the samguk sagi author would add this record that of mistakes.
(surly, the chinese authors cannot revised the tang books for the convenience of ME)

i got the source within 5 min, since they are easy access now on internet.

but i guess i don't have any good mood to help someone who are ignorant of sources, again.
 
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Jun 2014
1,020
Earth
Your cousin tribes as in other homo sapiens, as opposed to parahumans. Chinese language. Influenced by parahumans. Was that too many syllables for you?
Interestingly enough, people on the autistic spectrum have a difficult time separating make believe from reality.
 
Jun 2014
1,020
Earth
I totally forgot about the OP's other claim:

"The Je dynasty maintained independent ties to Silla and Balhae, became very wealthy thanks to intermediate trade. Later on Silla even sent 20,000 troops to aid the Tang in defeating the Je dynasy, in 819"

Wow is all I can say. No wonder a certain group has a certain reputation regarding history