How well is 濟 dynasty known in Chinese history as a descendant to Goguryeo?

Nov 2017
137
US
I think some of my repliers dont understand english well enough and took things way out of context. "sent troops to aid the Tang" means "Sent troops with the intention of aiding the Tang but not necessarily was of significant aid to the Tang in reality".

"South Korea sent troops to Iraq to aid the US in defeating the Iraqi Insurgents" makes perfect sense, even though the US could have done it itself, and the war was over before the Koreans arrived.

I am sorry that your feelings got hurt by taking my discussion out of context. But you should stop being racist right this moment because it is totaly uncalled for. Generalizing and denigrating an entire people has no place in this forum and will not be tolerated by anyone.
 
Jun 2014
1,020
Earth
I am sorry that your feelings got hurt...
No ones feelings got hurt. It is more like people are just shocked that you keep pushing this nonsense and then you backpedal like it never happened.

...by taking my discussion out of context
No one took anything out of context. Let's have another review with what you said verbatim:

*******************

Eventually they gathered enough strength, 100,000 soldiers, to threaten the capital Chang an, to the left.
Where did it say that? Nowhere.

Later on Silla even sent 20,000 troops to aid the Tang in defeating the Je dynasy, in 819
The Je dynasty maintained independent ties to Silla and Balhae, became very wealthy thanks to intermediate trade.
No they didn't. Not mentioned in any historical text at all.

Since Lee led soldiers that were conscripted from goguryeo refugees
Again, not mentioned anywhere.

All of the above paints a picture of a powerful (FALSE) and rich (FALSE) kingdom (FALSE), founded by Goguryeo refugees (FALSE) who maintained some ethnic connection to Balhae and Silla (FALSE) and was so powerful that the Tang couldn't defeat Qi by itself (FALSE) so it had to ask Silla for assistance in doing so (FALSE).

It takes talent to make a 100% bogus claim. Bravo.

I think we have a winner for the next author of Hwandan Gogi II: The next generation or maybe even Samguk Sagi 2: The Fairy Tale continues.

BTW Lee Jeonggi was born 65 years after Goguryeo nobles were relocated, so who really knows what percent Goguryeo he is, not to mention his son and grandsons.
 
Nov 2017
137
US
I am not trying to fight with you, I am relaying what I have read, so that anyone knowledgeable about the subject can verify or dispute it.

So are you going to admit that you were wrong in denying that
1.Qi nation existed
2. Silla sent troops to help Tang fight Qi.
3. Qi nation attacked the capital city of Tang, Luoyang?
Or is this still from Hwandan Gogi? Im still confused. lol

In the Old Book of Tang, in 818 the Tang Emperor called the king of Qi and his Qi nation was called 여흉당(麗兇黨), which means "Vile Goguryeo Horde", recognizing the status of Qi as a goguryeo affiliated country.

In the Old Book of Tang, it also said that in the Qi nation, the laws were fair and taxes were low so many people wanted to live in the country.

When Isado backed off from a confrontation with Tang and considered giving 3 provinces to Tang, his women were recorded to have said "why would you acquiesce when our soldiers are in the several hundreds of thousands?"

When the Qi nation fell, the Tang records said 3000 Goguryeo people were massacred. So there must have been many Goguryeo people under control of the Qi, for there to be such a massacre. We dont know how many were not massacred, but we do know there were many Samhan prisoners in Shandong due to the Tang Goguryeo Baekje Silla Wars.

I think the women could have been exaggerating about size of the Qi army, but the research shows Qi nation probably had 5,400,000 people and 100,000 total soldiers across 15 provinces. (ju)

Balhae sent an envoy to Qi a total of 54 times. Main import from Balhae were horses, presumably to use for fighting the Tang.
 
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heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,551
China

In the Old Book of Tang, in 818 the Tang Emperor called the king of Qi and his Qi nation was called 여흉당(麗兇黨), which means "Vile Goguryeo Horde", recognizing the status of Qi as a goguryeo affiliated country.

In the Old Book of Tang, it also said that in the Qi nation, the laws were fair and taxes were low so many people wanted to live in the country.
1. no Qi nation
2. no king of Qi
3. no 麗兇黨, the original phrasing is 附丽凶党, 附丽 is a single word, means "attach oneself to", 凶党 refers to the rebeller. you cannot forcedly divide 附丽 into two words, and twist it as Goguryeo. anyway, no source use 丽 to call Goguryeo. also no 3000 Goguryeo people.
4. you shouldn't post all of those in a place where people could read the source. that means....go to fool some guys could not read the source, that is more smart.

the original text of old book of tang on Li: (you just need to search for 齐, and easily find it is not linked to any 国/nation)
师道,师古异母弟。其母张忠志女。师道时知密州事,师古死,其奴不发丧,潜使迎师道于密而奉之。朝命久未至,师道谋于将吏,或欲加兵于四境,其判官高沐固止之。乃请进两税,守盐法,申官员,遣判官崔承宠、孔目官林英相继奏事。时杜黄裳作相,欲乘其未定也,以计分削之,宪宗以蜀川方扰,不能加兵于师道。元和元年七月,遂命建王审遥领节度,授师道检校左散骑常侍、兼御史大夫权知郓州事,弃淄青节度留后。十月,加检校工部尚书,兼郓州大都督府长史,充平卢军及淄青节度副大使,知节度事、管内支度营田观察处置、陆运海运押新罗渤海两蕃等使。自正己至师道,窃有郓、曹等十二州,六十年矣。惧众不附己,皆用严法制之。大将持兵镇于外者,皆质其妻子;或谋归款于朝,事泄,其家无少长皆杀之。以故能劫其众,父子兄弟相传焉。五年七月,检校尚书右仆射。
十年,王师蔡州,师道使贼烧河阴仓,断建陵桥。初,师道置留邸于河南府,兵谍杂以往来,吏不敢辨。因吴元济北犯汝、郑,郊畿多警,防御兵尽戍伊阙,师道潜以兵数十百人内其邸,谋焚宫阙而肆杀掠。既烹牛飨众矣,明日将出,会有小将杨进、李再兴者诣留守吕元膺告变,元膺追伊阙兵围之,半日不敢进攻。防御判官王茂元杀一人而后进,或有毁其墉而入者。贼众突出杀人,围兵奔骇,贼得结伍中衢,内其妻子于囊橐中,以甲胄殿而行,防御兵不敢追。贼出长夏门,转掠郊墅,东济伊水,入嵩山。元膺诫境上兵重购以捕之。数月,有山棚鬻鹿于市,贼遇而夺之,山棚走而征其党,或引官军共围之谷中,尽获之。穷理得其魁首,乃中岳寺僧圆静,年八十余,尝为史思明将,伟悍过人。初执之,使巨力者奋锤,不能折胫。圆静骂曰:“鼠子,折人脚犹不能,敢称健?乎!”乃自置其足教折之。临刑,乃曰:“误我事,不得使洛城流血。”死者凡数十人。留守御将二人、都亭驿卒五人、甘水驿卒三人,皆潜受其职署,而为之耳目,自始谋及将败,无知者。初,师道多买田于伊阙、陆浑之间,凡十所处,欲以舍山而衣食之。有訾嘉珍、门察者,潜部分之,以属圆静,以师道钱千万伪理嵩山之佛光寺,期以嘉珍窃发时举火于山中,集二县山棚人作乱。及穷按之,嘉珍、门察,乃贼武元衡者,元膺具状以闻。及诛吴元济,师道恐惧,上表乞听朝旨,请割三州并遣长子入侍宿卫,诏许之。
师道识暗,政事皆决于群婢。婢有号蒲大姊、袁七娘者,为谋主,乃言曰:“自先司徒以来,有此十二州,奈何一日无苦而割之耶!今境内兵士数十万人,不献三州,不过发兵相加,可以力战,战不胜,乃议割地,未晚也。”师道从之而止,表言军情不叶,乃诏诸军讨伐。十年十二月,武宁军节度使李愿遣将王智兴击破师道之众九千,斩首二千余级,获牛马四千,遂至平阴。十一年十一月,加师道司空,仍遣给事中柳公绰往宣慰,且观所为,欲宽容之。师道苟以逊顺为辞,长恶不悛。十三年七月,沧州节度使郑权破淄青贼于齐州福城县,斩首五百余级。十月,徐州节度使李愬、兵马使李祐兖州鱼台县破贼三千余人。魏博节度使田弘正率本军自阳刘渡河,距郓州九十里下营,再接战,破贼三万余众,生擒三千人,收器械不可胜纪。陈许节度使李光颜濮阳县界破贼,收斗门城、杜庄栅。田弘正复于故东阿县界破贼五万。诸军四合,累下城栅。
师道使刘悟将兵当魏博军,既败,数令促战。师未进,乃使奴召悟计事。悟知其来杀己,乃称病不出,召将吏谋曰:“魏博兵强,乘胜出战,必败吾师,不出则死。今天子所诛,司空一人而已。悟与公等皆被驱逐就死地,何如转祸为福,杀其来使,以兵趣郓州,立大功以求富贵。”众皆曰:“善。”乃迎其使而斩之,遂赉师道追牒,以兵趣郓州。及夜,至门,示以师道追牒,乃得入。兵士继进,至球场,因围其内城,以火攻之,擒师道而斩其首,送于魏博军,元和十四年二月也。是月,弘正献于京师,天子命左右军如受馘仪,先献于太庙效社,宪宗御兴安门受之,百僚称贺。
初,东军诸道行营节度擒逆贼将夏侯澄等共四十七人,诏曰:“附丽凶党,拒抗王师,国有常刑,悉合诛戮。朕以久居污俗,皆被胁从,况讨伐已来,时日不几,纵怀转祸之计,未有效款之由,情似可矜,朕不忍杀。况三军百姓,孰非吾人,诏令颁行,罪止师道。方欲拯于涂炭,是用活其性命,诚为屈法,庶使知恩。并宜特从释放,仍令却递送至魏博及义成行营,各委节度收管驱使。如父母血属犹在贼中,或羸老疾病情切归还者,仍量事优当放去,务备相全贷,何所疑留。”及澄等至行营,贼觇知传告,叛徒皆感朝恩,由是刘悟得行其谋焉。
师道妻魏氏及小男并配掖庭。堂弟师贤、师智配流春州,侄弘巽配流雷州。诏分其十二州为三节度,俾马总、薛平、王遂分镇焉。仍命宰臣崔群撰碑以纪其绩。国家自天宝末安禄山首乱两河,至宝应元年王师平史朝义,其将薛嵩李怀仙田承嗣李宝臣等受伪命分领州郡,朝廷厌兵,因仆固怀恩请,就加官爵。及侯希逸为军人逐出,正己又据齐、鲁之地,既而递相胶固,联结姻好,职贡不入,法令不加,率以为常。仍皆署其子为副大使,父死子立,则以三军之请闻,亦有为大将所杀而自立者。自安、史以后,迄至于贞元,朝廷多务优容,每闻擅袭,因而授之,以故六十余年,两河号为反侧之俗。宪宗知人善任,削平乱迹,两河复为王土焉。师道妻魏氏,元和十五年出家为尼。
 
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heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,551
China
also remember samguk sagi's record on yangzhou governor zhaogong ordered silla to send soldiers is largely false.
1. there is not administration title called "yangzhou governor", only a "huaixi governor" whose authority covers yangzhou
2. no person called zhaogong.
why the author wrote so, i don't know...
 

heylouis

Ad Honorem
Apr 2013
6,551
China
and more, luoyang was not the capital of tang, at least for the concerned time period.
luoyang city was important. during his rebellion, li shidao considered to deploy a special small force to harass luoyang, setting up fire, kill some citizen etc.
you can consider it a special operation.

it failed. no harass was successfully performed.

we must remember, though, in the OP, the mentioned city was changan, not luoyang, even further from a fact.
 
Jun 2014
1,020
Earth
So are you going to admit that you were wrong in denying that
1.Qi nation existed
2. Silla sent troops to help Tang fight Qi.
3. Qi nation attacked the capital city of Tang, Luoyang?
This is a joke right? Why would I do that? Have you read anything anyone has written or are you just having a conversation with yourself? Just about everything you have said is unsubstantiated or goes against historical record.

but we do know there were many Samhan prisoners in Shandong due to the Tang Goguryeo Baekje Silla Wars
The war was between Tang and Goguryeo. Silla was enlisted to support to the Tang in exchange for land should they succeed. Goguryeo nobles were relocated (not prisoners). I have not read of any Baekje familes relocated and definitely not Samhan (Mahan, Jinhan, and Byeonhan) because those kingdoms ceased to exist for hundreds of years.

Try getting your facts straight and not blurring every darn thing into your wishes and dreams
 
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Mar 2015
870
Europe
So, Samguk Sagi mentions a revolt of a governor in China, and dates it to 11th year of Heondeok, meaning 820 AD. Chinese histories also mention a governor revolting at about that time.
Samguk sagi specifies that Silla sent an army at the request of Tang government to assist Tang to suppress the rebellion. Do Chinese sources mention Tang inviting any barbarian allies to suppress a domestic revolt?
 
Sep 2016
598
天下
So, Samguk Sagi mentions a revolt of a governor in China, and dates it to 11th year of Heondeok, meaning 820 AD. Chinese histories also mention a governor revolting at about that time.
Samguk sagi specifies that Silla sent an army at the request of Tang government to assist Tang to suppress the rebellion. Do Chinese sources mention Tang inviting any barbarian allies to suppress a domestic revolt?
Samguk Sagi doesn't date the revolt for 820. It's the year where the request for assistance arrived. And it arrived AFTER the rebellion in China was suppressed. There's no mention of what happened with dispatched troops in either Samguk Sagi or Chinese sources to my knowledge.