Humiliating defeat of the Mongol army invading Dai Viet by the Chinese Tran dynasty

Jun 2013
1,445
Mundo Nuevo
#1
The Mongols unsuccessfully tried to invade Tran dynasty ruled Dai Viet multiple times but were defeated. Their final invasion was turned into a massive humiliating rout with a massive slaughter of the Mongol armies at the Battle of Bach Dang River in 1288 by the Tran dynasty of Dai Viet under Prince Trần Hưng Đạo. Countless Mongol troops were butchered by Tran soldiers.

The Tran dynasty were Chinese and migrated from Fujian in China to Dai Viet under Trần Kinh along with many other Chinese who moved south at that time. They continued speaking Chinese even after moving to Dai Viet which Prince Trần Hưng Đạo did. They took power in Dai Viet in 1225 and were one of the few states to not only survive and repulse the Mongols but inflict one of the worst defeats upon them.

Vietnam and the Chinese Model: A Comparative Study of Vietnamese and Chinese ... - Alexander Woodside - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

Secondary Cities and Urban Networking in the Indian Ocean Realm, C. 1400-1800 - Google Books

History Without Borders: The Making of an Asian World Region, 1000-1800 - Geoffrey C. Gunn - Google Books

Sources of Vietnamese Tradition - Google Books

These failed Mongol invasions are little known in the world compared to the Mongol invasions of Japan and the Battle of Ain Jalut.
 
Jun 2013
1,445
Mundo Nuevo
#2
By contrast, look at how fast and easily European armies were crushed. The Mongol invasion of Europe was one of their fastest campaigns.
 
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pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,081
#3
one swallow does not make a summer.

A large raid and a couple of battles hardly equals defeat or conquest for Europe. Some small weaker kingdoms mismanaged their battles. So what.
 
May 2009
1,298
#4
Dai Viet definitely had the advantage of terrain on their side. They were smart enough to flee into the jungles, and when the Mongols made the mistake of going in after them they got slaughtered. Eastern Europe was screwed from the beginning because they have the kind of terrain the Mongols love most.

I think it's fair to say that of all the Mongol defeats, Dai Viet was the most severe. Japan was mostly a fluke, Ain Jalut was an overhyped attack on a small garrison force, but Dai Viet earned their victory.
 
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Jan 2015
1,309
meo
#5
Stop right there. Trần clan was Vietnamese. They did write in Chinese but they spoke Vietnamese. First, your timeline is wrong. Second, Trần clan, back from Trần Hấp was indeed migrated Mandarin but after several hundred years, none of them speak Chinese nor practice any Mandarin tradition anymore. And this was before the first Trần becomes a Đại Việt emperor. Trần Kinh was also not a immigrant, he's the ninth Trần emperor. Ninth. NINTH. Third, Trần Hưng Đạo was never a prince, and nobody in Việt Nam ever calls him "prince". He's one of the emperor's cousins. We call him "general" or "great general". And also, his famous speech was indeed written in Chinese but was read in Vietnamese.

Finally, the defeat of Mongol in Đại Việt is hardly their worst defeat. Dont humiliate me or Việt Nam with that claim. We are proud that we did defeat Mongol 2 or 3 times but none of us consider that the defeat of Mongol in Việt Nam was their worst defeat.

I have saw another similar post about it but since it was so old, I didnt bother post in it. Just stop it.
 
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Jun 2013
1,445
Mundo Nuevo
#6
Stop right there. Trần clan was Vietnamese. They did write in Chinese but they spoke Vietnamese. First, your timeline is wrong. Second, Trần clan, back from Trần Hấp was indeed migrated Mandarin but after several hundred years, none of them speak Chinese nor practice any Mandarin tradition anymore. And this was before the first Trần becomes a Đại Việt emperor. Trần Kinh was also not a immigrant, he's the ninth Trần emperor. Ninth. NINTH. Third, Trần Hưng Đạo was never a prince, and nobody in Việt Nam ever calls him "prince". He's one of the emperor's cousins. We call him "general" or "great general". And also, his famous speech was indeed written in Chinese but was read in Vietnamese.

Finally, the defeat of Mongol in Đại Việt is hardly their worst defeat. Dont humiliate me or Việt Nam with that claim. We are proud that we did defeat Mongol 2 or 3 times but none of us consider that the defeat of Mongol in Việt Nam was their worst defeat.

I have saw another similar post about it but since it was so old, I didnt bother post in it. Just stop it.
I provided sources by western historians with PHDs in southeast asian history, where the hell are your sources? And what is "Mandarin tradition"? Trần Kinh 陈京 was the father of Trần Hấp 陳翕, who was the father of Trần Lý 陳李, who was the father of Trần Thừa 陳承, who was the father of Trần Cảnh 陳煚, the first Emperor of the Tran who became Emperor Trần Thái Tông.

Trần Kinh was born in Song dynasty China in the Min region (Fujian) and moved to Dai Viet where he became a fisherman. His grandson's grandson was the first Tran Emperor. And no, it was not several hundred years. The Song dynasty was established in 960, Trần Lý was born in 1160. Trần Kinh could not have come earlier than before 1000 unless he fathered children when he was over 80 years old.




Vietnam and the Chinese Model: A Comparative Study of Vietnamese and Chinese ... - Alexander Woodside - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

Secondary Cities and Urban Networking in the Indian Ocean Realm, C. 1400-1800 - Google Books

History Without Borders: The Making of an Asian World Region, 1000-1800 - Geoffrey C. Gunn - Google Books

Sources of Vietnamese Tradition - Google Books
 
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Jan 2015
1,309
meo
#7
Who wrote those books of yours? Western historians? Dont make me laugh. I read book written by Vietnamese historians. Also, all of what I said can be found easily on google. The fact that you know nothing about what you said is enough to call your links a hoax. Calling Trần Hưng Đạo a prince, only a nut call him like that. Calling Trần Kinh an immigrant? Either these so-called "western historians" are dumb or you just make presumption without reading these book throughly.

You want source? Why dont you try to google "Đại Việt Sử Ký Toàn Thư" wrote by Ngô Sĩ Liên, the most famous Việt Nam historian? If you cant read Vietnamese, try google translate.
 
Jun 2013
1,445
Mundo Nuevo
#8
Who wrote those books of yours? Western historians? Dont make me laugh. I read book written by Vietnamese historians. Also, all of what I said can be found easily on google. The fact that you know nothing about what you said is enough to call your links a hoax. Calling Trần Hưng Đạo a prince, only a nut call him like that. Calling Trần Kinh an immigrant? Either these so-called "western historians" are dumb or you just make presumption without reading these book throughly.

You want source? Why dont you try to google "Đại Việt Sử Ký Toàn Thư" wrote by Ngô Sĩ Liên, the most famous Việt Nam historian? If you cant read Vietnamese, try google translate.
Professor Keith Weller Taylor has a PHD in southeast asian history as does Professor John K Whitmore, don't try pulling this hoax crap because everyone can see the links for themselves.

Keith Weller Taylor - Department of Asian Studies

The sources did not call him a prince. Professor Taylor just said "Trần Hưng Đạo" was one of the Tran members who could speak Chinese since he impersonated a Chinese monk in 1282 when talking to a Yuan envoy. I call him Prince because that is the generic name in English used to refer to male royal family members. It is a convention in English to call male royal relatives as princes to specify that they are related to the royal family.

However the sources do all say that the Tran family originated in Fujian in China and Prfessor Taylor specifically names Trần Kinh (陳京), grandfather of Trần Lý (陳李).

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

And I specifically mentioned Trần Kinh 陳京 , NOT the ninth Emperor Trần Kính 陳曔. Did you see the í accent anywhere in Kinh? Different character and no accent mark.

Trần Kinh 陳京 was the one who moved from Fujian in China to Dai Viet. That is the name which was recorded by Dai Viet.


The fact that you failed to recognize his name and didn't know that he was the founder of the Tran clan in Dai Viet shows that you knew nothing about this topic and just looked it up right now just to try to refute my argument, but you got it wrong and it exposed your ignorance. If you studied the history of the Tran dynasty you would know exactly who he is and that he was the first Tran to move from China to Dai Viet.


In some Vietnamese websites his name is written as Trần Quốc Kinh and say that he moved from Fujian in China to Vietnam around 1110 while Lý Nhân Tông was Emperor. Others just write his name as Trần Kinh.
 
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Sephiroth

Ad Honorem
Feb 2015
2,986
It is a Top Secret
#9
By contrast, look at how fast and easily European armies were crushed. The Mongol invasion of Europe was one of their fastest campaigns.
I think this is not fair to the Europeans, because the plan to conquer the whole of Europe was described as "their most ambitous Venture" by the Mongols themselves and they concentrated a lot of Mongol-Power on this, though later they revised it as an "overestimation".

And I also think the earlier generation Mongols were more formadible.
 
Feb 2015
266
Singapore
#10
Who wrote those books of yours? Western historians? Dont make me laugh. I read book written by Vietnamese historians. Also, all of what I said can be found easily on google. The fact that you know nothing about what you said is enough to call your links a hoax. Calling Trần Hưng Đạo a prince, only a nut call him like that. Calling Trần Kinh an immigrant? Either these so-called "western historians" are dumb or you just make presumption without reading these book throughly.

You want source? Why dont you try to google "Đại Việt Sử Ký Toàn Thư" wrote by Ngô Sĩ Liên, the most famous Việt Nam historian? If you cant read Vietnamese, try google translate.

It is recorded in Đại Việt Sử Ký Toàn Thư (大越史記全書) that Trần Kinh (陳京) hailed from the Min 閩 region of China, otherwise also known as Fujian (福建省) during the Song Dynasty (宋朝). He moved to Nam Định Province, Vietnam (南定省) and was actively involved in the fishery industry. His family business expanded and he became an important figure in the region that was both wealthy and powerful.

His grandson Trần Lý (陳李) had his daughter married to Lý Huệ Tông (李惠宗), the eighth king of the Lý Dynasty (李朝) who ruled from 1211 AD - 1224 AD. Emperor Lý Huệ Tông was recorded to have been mentally ill and spent his last days in bed dousing himself in liquor before passing away at the age of 32 years old.

This effectively meant that Trần Lý's sons, Trần Tự Khánh (陳嗣慶) and Trần Thừa (陳承) who held important posts as supreme government officials (太尉) were able to rise to power since Đàm Thì An Toàn Hoàng Hậu (潭氏安全皇后), Lý Huệ Tông's mother, no longer had any real control over the country.

Lý Chiêu Hoàng (李昭皇) who was the second daughter of Lý Huệ Tông had also become the empress of Vietnam and the ninth ruler of the Lý Dynasty, after which she was married to Trần Cảnh (陳煚), later also known as Trần Thái Tông (陳太宗), Trần Thừa's second son and the new Trần Dynasty (陳朝) was formed.

Trần Cảnh (陳煚) would also later choose to leave Lý Chiêu Hoàng for another spouse as he found her to be infertile. Trần Thủ Độ (陳守度), Trần Cảnh's uncle who was mainly the one who planned everything out and paired the daughters of Lý Huệ Tông together with his nephews so that the Trần family was able to usurp the throne in Vietnam suggested that he marry Lý Thì Oánh, who was already his sister-in-law.

Lý Thì Oánh (李氏瑩), otherwise known as Công Chúa Thuận Thiên (公主順天) and later Hiển Từ Hoàng Hậu (顯慈皇后) was the eldest daughter of Lý Huệ Tông. She was married to Trần Liễu (陳柳), the eldest son of Trần Thừa and the elder brother of Trần Cảnh.

Being very angry with his brother and uncle for having suggested the marriage between Trần Cảnh and Lý Thì Oánh, he led rebel forces against his own brother in an effort to overthrow the regime. He was defeated at battle and he went to look for his brother to surrender, disguised as a fisherman. Trần Cảnh forgave him and bestowed onto him the title of Yên Sinh Vương (安生王).

Trần Cảnh himself did not marry Lý Thì Oánh, but rather, picked another spouse on his own accord.

Trần Liễu (陳柳) later left for another spouse known as 諱月善. They gave birth to five children - one of them being Trần Quốc Tuấn (陳國峻), later Trần Hưng Đạo (陳興道) / Hưng Đạo Vương (興道王).

At his deathbed, Trần Liễu said that he wanted his son Trần Quốc Tuấn, later Trần Hưng Đạo to conquer the country and rise to the throne; which he eventually did.

Overall, I'd say that it was a complicated family affair between the Lýs and the Trầns. But that's how complicated things were back then in East Asian society. It was a constant battle for the throne, even within the family.

Since this whole event occurred over the span of 5 generations, it wouldn't surprise me either even if Trần Hưng Đạo spoke only Vietnamese.

Even today, the surname 陳 (Mandarin: Chen / Cantonese: Chan / Southern Min: Tan) remains to be the most common surname in Southern China, especially in Taiwan, Fujian and other overseas Hokkien-speaking Chinese communities in Singapore and Malaysia.
 
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