Hypnotism - is it bunk or is it real?

Feb 2011
13,609
Perambulating in St James' Park
#41
Hmm- once again you don't get it. I am not saying hypnotism doesn't WORK- as hypnosis- if i were saying that then i would not be warning that it CAN plant false memories.

But it only works as Suggestion to those Willing to go along.

Thus- my own example for the Pin in the Knee experiment proves that Suggestion alone can help people moderate their own experience of pain- the point to that story was that hypnosis can do it- AND that merely having a conversation openly eliciting cooperation can do it too- that is- that ALL forms of suggestion are effectively the sam as hypnosis.

A hamburger commercial is a form of hypnosis- they come on near meal times and try to sway those open to suggestion to feel like getting a hamburger.

THAT is what hypnotism is and what it does.
Its effectiveness at manipulation is its danger.





Sorry- but you are wrong. A therapist saying "did anything happen" is STILL steering the narrative. Because they simply keep saying it, over and over, until the child says something more in line with the therapists own bias or expectation. And then the therapist subtly rewards the child for saying the "right" things.
This has been proven to happen in ways so subtle the therapist can not control it. Body language. A sigh. A sudden change of topic... all kinds of very subtle cues that push a patient to seek that feedback thru inventing details.

Human beings CAN NOT keep themselves from giving cues and feedback.

Therapists trying to recover memories always start with an assumption of the KIND of 'repressed' memories they are looking for- This simple fact has been proven to result in their finding exactly what they are looking for.

ETA- oh, and BTW- an authority telling the Therapist that they need to know if this child has been molested- is actively planting a SUGGESTION in the therapist's mind. The therapist is walking into the room under that suggestion. that is- he himself has been hypnotized. An authority figure told him what he is likely to find- and so he looks harder for that than anything else.

This, too, is hypnosis, and this is its danger- in 'official' hypnosis, someone ASKS you to voluntarily give up your own will to theirs. But we are hypnotized all the time unawares. The Therapist speaking to the authority prior to the interview is merely OPEN to hear what the authority has to say- but he can not help but be lulled by the fact of this being an authority in placing more credence in the authority's suggestion.

The therapist is unwittingly agreeing to adopt the authority's suggestion, and the fact that he does not even recognize the authority as planting suggestion only makes the suggestion more effective- because the therapist is not even aware he has surrendered his own 'objectivity' to the officer's narrative.

That is how you manipulate whole populations.

So, yeah, hypnotism works- ALMOST as well as simply asking people to suspend their own will and pretend.

Advertising is hypnosis. And so are public speeches.
And concert performances.

Its simply the human evolved trait to go along- to band into mob- to get swept up in other's excitement or agenda.

And we also evolved a certain percentage of Non-Suggestibility... because there has to be a moderator on peoples willingness to do as they are told.

We sometimes need to hear a different person telling us to do a different thing, so that we can wake up and realize that we are making a choice.

There is nothing amazing about hypnotism except the hype.


What if he/she is an independent psychiatrist?

Imho what you're suggesting is a bit different to getting someone to dance around like a chicken. If an authority figure asked someone to do that with no hypnosis most people would say no.
 
Feb 2011
13,609
Perambulating in St James' Park
#43
Surely you have read the novel ' The Manchurian Candidate ' in which a US prisoner of war in Korea is brainwashed into obeying whatever commands received by him when he sees a particular card in a deck of cards. He has been programmed to kill the US President !
@Earl_ of _ Rochester,
You have not commented on my reference to the ' The Manchurian Candidate '. Have decided to put me on your ignore list ?

Hi rvsakhadeo,

I don't have you on ignore, my apologies if I did not respond. I don't have as much time as I used to so I usually skim through threads now. I have seen bits of the movie when it was on tv years ago, tho it is fiction afaik and as per my previous post the military have written off hypnotism as a waste of time.

Tho having said that I do think hypnotism is somewhat related to brainwashing, nationalism and the cult of glory. It's probably quite similar to religious fervour too. The strange thing is that it can make people behave in a completely out of character manner though. Generals and bishops generally don't perform live chicken acts.
 

rvsakhadeo

Ad Honorem
Sep 2012
9,156
India
#44
OK. But what do you say about the US Army men taken prisoners by the Vietcong and made to write and rewrite their autobiographies with the sole aim to produce a deep inferiority complex with respect to their captors and make them suggestible to the Communist propaganda.
 
Feb 2011
13,609
Perambulating in St James' Park
#45
OK. But what do you say about the US Army men taken prisoners by the Vietcong and made to write and rewrite their autobiographies with the sole aim to produce a deep inferiority complex with respect to their captors and make them suggestible to the Communist propaganda.
I think that would be brainwashing, much like the nazi education in schools in the 1930s. It's quite well documented that the communists tried to brainwash their prisoners. I think Bernard Fall mentions it in street without joy.

Tho as aforesaid, this is a very different thing compared to making someone prance around like a fairy or believe they're a chicken.
 

rvsakhadeo

Ad Honorem
Sep 2012
9,156
India
#46
I think that would be brainwashing, much like the nazi education in schools in the 1930s. It's quite well documented that the communists tried to brainwash their prisoners. I think Bernard Fall mentions it in street without joy.

Tho as aforesaid, this is a very different thing compared to making someone prance around like a fairy or believe they're a chicken.
True. Yet my opinion is that Brainwashing is a form of hypnotism spread over time and probably with longer lasting effects. Modern advertising encouraging people to go in for binges of unnecessary shopping is a form of brainwashing / hypnotism, I say. And an example has recently come into my reading that in our neighbouring country where the frustrated Army rules, the school text books right from Primary schools tell children how victorious has been the glorious Pakistan Army , in all its encounters, over its mortal enemy the Hindu nation called India. No wonder, for generations, the Pakistanis hate us.
 
Feb 2011
13,609
Perambulating in St James' Park
#47
True. Yet my opinion is that Brainwashing is a form of hypnotism spread over time and probably with longer lasting effects. Modern advertising encouraging people to go in for binges of unnecessary shopping is a form of brainwashing / hypnotism, I say. And an example has recently come into my reading that in our neighbouring country where the frustrated Army rules, the school text books right from Primary schools tell children how victorious has been the glorious Pakistan Army , in all its encounters, over its mortal enemy the Hindu nation called India. No wonder, for generations, the Pakistanis hate us.


That is a rather sad state of affairs, it's also why I encourage the closure of faith schools and encourage secular reasoning and analysis. There's no better way to divide people than to teach children that others are different.

Brainwashing is probably a form of hypnotism, but I think hypnotism still has deeper and more bizarre results. I don't think it's possible to brainwash someone into believing that they're a chicken, and yet with some smooth talk and the flick of some fingers it seems that people are willing to believe it in just a few moments.

I wonder why this sort of thing hasn't been abused on a far larger scale? It would be a very powerful tool for terrorists and recruiting suicide bombers.
 
Oct 2009
3,602
San Diego
#48
What if he/she is an independent psychiatrist?

Imho what you're suggesting is a bit different to getting someone to dance around like a chicken. If an authority figure asked someone to do that with no hypnosis most people would say no.
Really? You haven't seen Trump rally, then?


With hypnosis, context is everything. Hitler's rallies were mass hypnosis- and the fact that people see OTHERS going along with the abrogation of their own will makes them far more likely to be willing to suspend their own agency.

Its how Looting happens. How mobs spontaneously become destructive.

And its why stage hypnotists always start with a large group of people... because as some of the people get tapped out- others, not wanting to get tapped out go along, and still others on stage see their fellows going along and so they opt to go along.



Its not magic- its not "baffling" or some amazing power... its simply the survival advantage in Belonging. In being a member of a group.

If you are turning cars over in the street, then the Rest of the mob sees you as being one of Them... and you are safer.



And sorry- there is no such thing as an "independent psychiatrist"... anyone calling themselves a psychiatrist has been indoctrinated with a whole belief system about how the human mind and personality work... and MOST of those beliefs have absolutely zero basis in any empirical proof.

Freud's ideas are malarky- as are Jung's- there is no such thing as "repressed memory". And no means to recover 'lost' memories that are not provable as planting false memories.

Plenty of 'independent psychiatrists' have fallen for beliefs about repressed memories... have endorsed tales of alien abduction and other hysterical nonsense to which they, themselves, have contributed in inventing.

EVERYONE is subject to suggestion, ALL the time. And testing shows that 70% or so of the human population is Suggestible... under the right conditions.
 

Pedro

Forum Staff
Mar 2008
17,151
On a mountain top in Costa Rica. yeah...I win!!
#49
Sculptingman: You have mentioned Trump in this thread and in another thread you referred to Sanders.
The rules of this forum forbid any mention of current partisan politics.
 

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