I need help History boi's!

Chlodio

Forum Staff
Aug 2016
4,320
Dispargum
#21
Yeah, TBH, I simply don't get the logic behind the initial premise here. Did the Pope declare the HRE the only empire in Europe, or what?
Oooh just a little ahead of a simultaneous post, Comet. :)

In 800, there was a basis for equating the HRE with a re-unified Europe. France, most of Italy, and most of modern Germany had all been unified under Charlemagne. Only Britain and Spain remained outside the HRE. In future years the HRE contracted, but there may have been an old dream of a unified Europe in a single Roman Empire. Maybe someone can confirm or deny this last part.
 
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Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,069
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#22
The concept may have started as early as the 4th century when Constantine called the Council of Nicea to fix the Christian crisis of that century. Someone mentioned it earlier...one God, one emperor. As Choldio mentions, this idea was reinforced when the pope crowned Charlemagne in 800. The term Christendom (Christian kingdom) began to stick as a major part of the medieval concept of an empire.
Then is it incorrect to call the Roman Empire prior to that as an Empire?
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
21,200
SoCal
#23
Oooh just a little ahead of a simultaneous post, Comet. :)

In 800, there was a basis for equating the HRE with a re-unified Europe. France, most of Italy, and most of modern Germany had all been unified under Charlemagne. Only Britain and Spain remained outside the HRE. In future years the HRE contracted, but there may have been an old dream of a unified Europe in a single Roman Empire. Maybe someone can confirm or deny this last part.
Western Europe also includes Scandinavia, though.

Also, I'm not Comet.
 

Chlodio

Forum Staff
Aug 2016
4,320
Dispargum
#24
Yeah, I know you're not Comet. But we both answered your same post only seconds apart.
Yes, Scandinavia, the Balkans, the rest of Eastern Europe were never conquered by Charlemagne and generally remained outside of the HRE during its 1,000 year existence. But I think a lot of the Medieval popes were hoping for a restoration of the old Western Roman Empire and for the Medieval French, or the Angevins, or any one else to also claim to be an empire would have threatened this ideal of a unified Europe. I know Europe never was unified after 476 but that was the Medieval ideal, or so I'm thinking. If a Medievalist can show I'm wrong, I'll be OK with that. The HRE is not my area.
 
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Comet

Forum Staff
Aug 2006
8,702
IA
#26
Then is it incorrect to call the Roman Empire prior to that as an Empire?
Prior to Constantine, the Roman Empire was on the verge of collapse. Many different reasons, but a lot of incompetent leaders. Anyway, Constantine most likely saw an opportunity to unify the empire once again. This time under Christianity...a religion that was more law based and disciplined than the Pagan religions. In other words, he used the religion for his own political gain. It worked. Rome survived about another 200 years instead of falling during the 4th century.
 
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Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,069
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#27
Prior to Constantine, the Roman Empire was on the verge of collapse. Many different reasons, but a lot of incompetent leaders. Anyway, Constantine most likely saw an opportunity to unify the empire once again. This time under Christianity...a religion that was more law based and disciplined than the Pagan religions. In other words, he used the religion for his own political gain. It worked. Rome survived about another 200 years instead of falling during the 4th century.
Immediately prior to Constantine, that was true but Rome had existed under an imperial system for centuries before that. What I mean is that, during that period, is it wrong to call Rome an Empire?
 
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Chlodio

Forum Staff
Aug 2016
4,320
Dispargum
#28
Prior to Constantine, the Roman Empire was on the verge of collapse. Many different reasons, but a lot of incompetent leaders. Anyway, Constantine most likely saw an opportunity to unify the empire once again. This time under Christianity...a religion that was more law based and disciplined than the Pagan religions. In other words, he used the religion for his own political gain. It worked. Rome survived about another 200 years instead of falling during the 4th century.
Immediately prior to Constantine, that was true but Rome had existed under an imperial system for centuries before that. What I mean is that, during that period, is it wrong to call Rome an Empire?
Yes, but can we see this idea of a pope-centered Christian empire emerging and continuing through the Middle Ages as the HRE?
 

Comet

Forum Staff
Aug 2006
8,702
IA
#30
Immediately prior to Constantine, that was true but Rome had existed under an imperial system for centuries before that. What I mean is that, during that period, is it wrong to call Rome an Empire?
Yes, but can we see this idea of a pope-centered Christian empire emerging and continuing through the Middle Ages as the HRE?
Spot on
 
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