I need help History boi's!

Comet

Forum Staff
Aug 2006
8,702
IA
#31
I'm not sure if a Christian empire what the OP is implying in the definition of "Empire"?
He did mention that its possibly related to theology...but you bring up a good point. I think a working definition of what an empire was during the early stages of the Roman Empire might be in order. After all, Roman influence did spread to other barbarian tribes as the Romans expanded which could have easily influenced their understanding of what an empire was.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,069
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#32
I don't think you quite follow what I'm asking. The OP doesn't specify medieval Europe, he just says Europe. Now, if we are indeed talking about medieval Europe, I'm happy to accept this but in terms of the concept of empire in general, rather than a specifically Christian empire, surely the pre-Constantine Roman empire can legitimately be described as an Empire?

EDIT: Sorry, I didn't see your above post.
 

Chlodio

Forum Staff
Aug 2016
4,320
Dispargum
#33
And as for why we're talking Medieval Empires, the OP asked why the 12th century Angevins were not an empire and that according to his or her source, the HRE was the only true empire at that time.

I'm thinking an empire in this context represents a unity, especially a unity of Europe and the Medieval Christian (or at least Catholic) world.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
35,069
T'Republic of Yorkshire
#34
And as for why we're talking Medieval Empires, the OP asked why the 12th century Angevins were not an empire and that according to his or her source, the HRE was the only true empire at that time.

I'm thinking an empire in this context represents a unity, especially a unity of Europe and the Medieval Christian (or at least Catholic) world.
I thought he was bringing up the Angevin empire as an example. But also, he cited the fact that the Angevin empire never referred to itself as an empire (and it wasn't - it was a collection of feudal territories personally by the Angevin kings, and for some of which they owed fealty to the King of France).
 

Chlodio

Forum Staff
Aug 2016
4,320
Dispargum
#35
I thought he was bringing up the Angevin empire as an example. But also, he cited the fact that the Angevin empire never referred to itself as an empire (and it wasn't - it was a collection of feudal territories personally by the Angevin kings, and for some of which they owed fealty to the King of France).
I agree the Angevin Kingdom or Empire was only a loose association of several polities, but then so was the HRE for much of its history. That's why I'm inclining away from traditional definitions of empire that imply strength and power. I think the popes had a different idea of what an empire should be.

Clearly the OP is not talking about 19th century Europe when most major powers called themselves empires and were ruled by emperors/empresses. If there ever was an understanding that there could only be one empire in Europe it had to be prior to 1804. Austerlitz (1805) is known as the Battle of Three Emperors. Clearly Francis of Austria no longer accepted that there could only be one emperor in Catholic Europe.
 

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,425
Republika Srpska
#36
I'm not sure if a Christian empire what the OP is implying in the definition of "Empire"?
The OP asked why there was theoretically only one official Empire in Europe (he should have specified medieval and early modern Europe) and the answer has a lot to do with Christianity. Pre-Constantine Roman Empire was also an empire, but the religious justification of their dominant, imperial status was different.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,705
Portugal
#37
During the 11th and 12th centuries the title of Emperor was used several times in the Iberian Peninsula, by catholic monarchs, they often considered themselves at the same level of the HRE and Byzantine emperors:

Imperator totius Hispaniae - Wikipedia

The capitals of the byzantine and ottoman empires were in Europe, as was much of their territory. The Russian empire was primarily based in Europe. The Mongol empire I was referring to was the Golden Horde, which ruled much of eastern Europe. The various western European colonial countries ruled vast empires (British, French, German, Dutch, Spanish, Portuguese, etc.). Napoleon called his domain an empire and took the title of emperor.
The Medieval concept of a sole monarchy was a catholic concept, so the non-catholic empires are irrelevant in this. A British ruler took the tittle of Empress of India, but Britain wasn’t catholic anymore. Napoleon destroyed the concept already in the 19th century. The German empire was basically the HRE, since in the 19th century the Kaiser wasn’t ruling a catholic Empire, and as far as I recall, the Portuguese monarch never had the title of Emperor. Neither the Dutch, but those were protestants.
 
Sep 2019
45
Canada
#38
The concept may have started as early as the 4th century when Constantine called the Council of Nicea to fix the Christian crisis of that century. Someone mentioned it earlier...one God, one emperor. As Choldio mentions, this idea was reinforced when the pope crowned Charlemagne in 800. The term Christendom (Christian kingdom) began to stick as a major part of the medieval concept of an empire.
Excellent, thank you
 
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