I root for the Germans.....sometimes

Feb 2011
920
Scotland
#61
Tell that to the Israeli Nazi hunters, just because a crime was committed 60 years ago doesn't make them any less guilty. I'm also not getting "worked up" over it. I remain impartial over historical discourse because that's the correct way to study history. My claim is that the Germans had a large part to play in the wickedness of their regime and I provided examples to back up my PoV. .
Exactly. Thank you. If someone commits an horrific crime- murder, multiple murders, we aren't talking about traffic violations or even theft in talking about a 'crime' in these instances. It's cold blooded destruction of human beings for no other reason than that one doesn't like the fact of their very existence.

Should the culprits be allowed to get away with it because 60 years have passed and they grew old? How about the poor victims - men, women and children- who were deprived of their lives, never got the chance or option to live those 60 years and grow old?

Some people voted for and continued to support (often to the bitter end) a depraved regime, the leader of which made it clear, in print, years in advance, just what were his views and goals. Should they bear some sort of responsibility?

On the whole however, it is the finger that pulls the trigger that bears the responsibility for atrocities and one cannot attribute blame to generic groups which will certainly contain very many people entirely innocent of any wrongdoing.
 
May 2018
481
Michigan
#62
Tell that to the Israeli Nazi hunters, just because a crime was committed 60 years ago doesn't make them any less guilty. I'm also not getting "worked up" over it. I remain impartial over historical discourse because that's the correct way to study history. My claim is that the Germans had a large part to play in the wickedness of their regime and I provided examples to back up my PoV. If you want to continue with an historical discussion then you need to back up your PoV with historical sources and examples, otherwise it's just your opinion and I could spuriously claim that you're getting 'worked up' over the German people's supposed innocence.




It was an illegal pre-emptive strike based on faulty intel and was little more than politically correct imperialism. By 2006 this should have been blatantly obvious to everyone. It's hubris to think that the Middle East would want to be like the West and desire Western Freedom. They have their own worldview of Islam, it's up to them if they want to change their domestic regime.
Lol, yeah, you're pretty worked up about it. Chill out, bud. You haven't linked a single article backing up your statements, and your allegation that all, or even most, Germans were fully aware of the vileness of the Nazi regime.

Quite frankly, you are an intellectually-deficient individual of myopic vision who is incapable of having their own thought. Some of us see the whole picture, whereas you are a very emotional individual hell-bent on condemning 98-year old senile seniors, many of who had, at best, a peripheral involvement in the Third Reich's crimes. When I was a liberal, I used to be like you: condemning former German soldiers, Confederates, and even religious conservatives for being literal Nazis, or no better than Nazis like Eichmann himself. As one of the few truly objective voices around here, you would do well to check yourself before I embarrass you further by exposing your general ignorance, lack of intellectual judgement, and quasi-totalitarian beliefs.

If we are to condemn anyone, morally or legally, it must be based upon evidence on a case-by-case basis: making blanket statements and hasty generalizations is unacceptable. Innocent until proven guilty is just as important in judging history as it is in judging criminal trials. I demand evidence before legally or morally condemning someone, or making a decision as to their involvement in history.
 

Scaeva

Ad Honorem
Oct 2012
5,424
#63
There was nothing admirable about the Third Reich or those who did its bidding.

No nation in human history ever so richly deserved the thorough defeat it received in war than Nazi Germany. While no doubt there were many German soldiers who had no direct role in atrocities, unless they were part of active resistance against the state, they were still fighting on behalf of one of the most monstrous regimes in human history. There is no honor to be found in fighting for a morally repugnant cause.

There is also a fair bit of "good German" mythology about the Wehrmacht, which contrary to popular belief, had a direct role in countless atrocities and participated in the Holocaust.

War crimes of the Wehrmacht - Wikipedia

If I'm going to admire anyone from the Second World War in Europe, my pick would be the common American G.I. or British Tommy who helped liberate Western Europe rather than the fascists shooting at them. Or Germans like Sophie Scholl, who was both braver and wiser than any jackbooted Jerry that went off to fight for lebensraum and ethnic cleansing and got himself riddled with Soviet lead.

I also find it a bit odd to be frank, when people from Allied nations whose relatives potentially fought against the Third Reich or suffered under German occupation, fetishize the German Wehrmacht.
 
Last edited:
Feb 2011
13,471
Perambulating in St James' Park
#64
Lol, yeah, you're pretty worked up about it. Chill out, bud. You haven't linked a single article backing up your statements, and your allegation that all, or even most, Germans were fully aware of the vileness of the Nazi regime.

Quite frankly, you are an intellectually-deficient individual of myopic vision who is incapable of having their own thought. Some of us see the whole picture, whereas you are a very emotional individual hell-bent on condemning 98-year old senile seniors, many of who had, at best, a peripheral involvement in the Third Reich's crimes. When I was a liberal, I used to be like you: condemning former German soldiers, Confederates, and even religious conservatives for being literal Nazis, or no better than Nazis like Eichmann himself. As one of the few truly objective voices around here, you would do well to check yourself before I embarrass you further by exposing your general ignorance, lack of intellectual judgement, and quasi-totalitarian beliefs.

If we are to condemn anyone, morally or legally, it must be based upon evidence on a case-by-case basis: making blanket statements and hasty generalizations is unacceptable. Innocent until proven guilty is just as important in judging history as it is in judging criminal trials. I demand evidence before legally or morally condemning someone, or making a decision as to their involvement in history.

I'll post the sources if you want, though please refrain from your petty insults as it brings nothing to the debate. Just because I disagree with you gives you no right to resort to personal animosity. As you're fairly new I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but if you want to continue this discourse then please do so in a more civilised manner.
 

Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
8,902
The People's Republik of Kalifornia.
#65
There was nothing admirable about the Third Reich or those who did its bidding.

No nation in human history ever so richly deserved the thorough defeat it received in war than Nazi Germany. While no doubt there were many German soldiers who had no direct role in atrocities, unless they were part of active resistance against the state, they were still fighting on behalf of one of the most monstrous regimes in human history. There is no honor to be found in fighting for a morally repugnant cause.

There is also a fair bit of "good German" mythology about the Wehrmacht, which contrary to popular belief, had a direct role in countless atrocities and participated in the Holocaust.

War crimes of the Wehrmacht - Wikipedia

If I'm going to admire anyone from the Second World War in Europe, my pick would be the common American G.I. or British Tommy who helped liberate Western Europe rather than the fascists shooting at them. Or Germans like Sophie Scholl, who was both braver and wiser than any jackbooted Jerry that went off to fight for lebensraum and ethnic cleansing and got himself riddled with Soviet lead.
Because the Nazis are the first and only group we can accuse of fighting for a morally repugnant cause?

Also, I'm pretty sure you taken part in the discussions we've had here regarding soldiers and what they fight for. They fight for lots of different reasons: money, ideology, patriotism, nationalism, etc....... but they also fight for one another. You're telling that there's no honor in that?

Lastly, how many people in the Wehrmacht had a choice in the matter? Some? Most, maybe? But certainly not all. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that a refusal to do what you were told could possibly have landed you in jail... or worse. And these consequences might have been extended to one's family. So, please, stop with emotional ultimatums and virtue signaling.

I also find it a bit odd to be frank, when people from Allied nations whose relatives potentially fought against the Third Reich or suffered under German occupation, fetishize the German Wehrmacht.
Talk about being impartial; So, if anyone feels any inclination to "fetishize" the German war machine, they should suppress such feelings because they're British/American/Dutch/French/Russian?

My grandpa was in the US Army Air Force in WWII.

My Uncle was in Vietnam.

I am a US army veteran who was deployed to the Middle East.

None of these things would necessarily stop me from admiring or of being cognizant of the achievements of the Wehrmacht, NVA, VC, Taliban or paramilitary insurgents.
 
Likes: frogsofwar
May 2018
481
Michigan
#66
I'll post the sources if you want, though please refrain from your petty insults as it brings nothing to the debate. Just because I disagree with you gives you no right to resort to personal animosity. As you're fairly new I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but if you want to continue this discourse then please do so in a more civilised manner.
I beat no one on this forum ill-will. Your tendency to jump to conclusions by assuming all, most or even any (without actual proof on a case by case basis) Germans are guilty is intellectually immature.

If you think this is me having “animosity”, son, you have no idea.
 
May 2018
481
Michigan
#67
I am a US army veteran who was deployed to the Middle East.

None of these things would necessarily stop me from admiring or of being cognizant of the achievements of the Wehrmacht, NVA, VC, Taliban or paramilitary insurgents.
These are the words of a thoughtful individual who takes a careful, nuanced and intellectually valuable look at history. Someone people simply can’t see past “they are evil” and cease all thoughtful inquiry on that basis.
 
Likes: Menshevik

Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
8,902
The People's Republik of Kalifornia.
#68
These are the words of a thoughtful individual who takes a careful, nuanced and intellectually valuable look at history. Someone people simply can’t see past “they are evil” and cease all thoughtful inquiry on that basis.
Thanks......I try.

I forgot to add that at some point the Germans were literally defending their country and their homes. One could argue that the Germans were reaping what they had sown, fine, but still.....
 

Scaeva

Ad Honorem
Oct 2012
5,424
#69
Because the Nazis are the first and only group we can accuse of fighting for a morally repugnant cause?
They're not the first and won't be the last. The German cause during the Second World War however was the absolute worst in the entire history of warfare. It really is in a category all it's own.


Also, I'm pretty sure you taken part in the discussions we've had here regarding soldiers and what they fight for. They fight for lots of different reasons: money, ideology, patriotism, nationalism, etc....... but they also fight for one another. You're telling that there's no honor in that?
Not from my perspective, no. I'd argue you need more than that to be worthy of admiration or praise. Plenty of scumbuckets who participated in massacres of civilians also were brave in combat and fought on behalf of their comrades. Bravery on behalf of fellow soldiers isn't enough to make a person honorable.

Lastly, how many people in the Wehrmacht had a choice in the matter? Some? Most, maybe? But certainly not all. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that a refusal to do what you were told could possibly have landed you in jail... or worse. And these consequences might have been extended to one's family. So, please, stop with emotional ultimatums and virtue signaling.
I am sure there were plenty who were drafted and found themselves in circumstances they didn't want to participate in. While that perhaps make them somewhat worthy of empathy it does not make them worthy of admiration. While understandable that they may not have wanted to risk being arrested or worse, it is nevertheless the path of least resistance. It is much harder to go the route that Sophie Scholl went. If you're going to admire someone for bravery, she would seem a much better choice than some scared conscript who fought on behalf of the Third Reich.

Everything in the post you quoted was a sincere opinion. I'm not surprised that you disagree with it, but that you disagree with it does not transform my opinion into "virtue signalling."




Talk about being impartial; So, if anyone feels any inclination to "fetishize" the German war machine, they should suppress such feelings because they're British/American/Dutch/French/Russian?

My grandpa was in the US Army Air Force in WWII.

My Uncle was in Vietnam.

I am a US army veteran who was deployed to the Middle East.

None of these things would necessarily stop me from admiring or of being cognizant of the achievements of the Wehrmacht, NVA, VC, Taliban or paramilitary insurgents.
There is an ocean of difference between recognizing the soldierly qualities of enemies and admiring them to the extent that you wish that they won. If someone says that they sometimes find themselves rooting for the Germans in World War Two, that at least sounds like they sometimes mourn Nazi Germany's defeat.
 

Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
8,902
The People's Republik of Kalifornia.
#70
They're not the first and won't be the last. The German cause during the Second World War however was the absolute worst in the entire history of warfare. It really is in a category all it's own.




Not from my perspective, no. I'd argue you need more than that to be worthy of admiration or praise. Plenty of scumbuckets who participated in massacres of civilians also were brave in combat and fought on behalf of their comrades. Bravery on behalf of fellow soldiers isn't enough to make a person honorable.



I am sure there were plenty who were drafted and found themselves in circumstances they didn't want to participate in. While that perhaps make them somewhat worthy of empathy it does not make them worthy of admiration. While understandable that they may not have wanted to risk being arrested or worse, it is nevertheless the path of least resistance. It is much harder to go the route that Sophie Scholl went. If you're going to admire someone for bravery, she would seem a much better choice than some scared conscript who fought on behalf of the Third Reich.

Everything in the post you quoted was a sincere opinion. I'm not surprised that you disagree with it, but that you disagree with it does not transform my opinion into "virtue signalling."






There is an ocean of difference between recognizing the soldierly qualities of enemies and admiring them to the extent that you wish that they won. If someone says that they sometimes find themselves rooting for the Germans in World War Two, that at least sounds like they sometimes mourn Nazi Germany's defeat.
I'm not going to continue to respond to these emotive, wide sweeping generalizations. And you're twisting my words a bit, show me where I said I wanted the Germans to win.

Sophie Scholl? We are in the Military Forum, right? What does she have to do with things like military informs, tanks, machine guns, tactics and strategy.... you know, all the things that I've mentioned as being reasons why I do find myself drawn to the German military?
 

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