If Germany only focused on defeating Britain instead of betraying Russia, would Germany have conquered Britain?

Jul 2016
7,353
USA
- No kidding.

I like the version of Suvorov that Russia was preparing an invasion of Germany in 1941, but the Germans were ahead of it. I like it just as much as any other version that ranks many various facts into a logical chain.

As I see the version that for Russia the German invasion was the attack of a wolf on a peaceful sheep is not too friendly with lots of facts.

I do not know if the version of Suvorov was discussed here. I am ready to invest my ten cent coin in such discussion. I have a number of strong arguments in its favor, including the ones which Suvorov himself does not have

Now tell me that Russia was an innocent victim in summer 1941. Russia, which since 1918 has conducted a series of aggressive wars, conquests and annexations of the territories of other countries and peoples.

Russia, which placed the globe in its emblem of the USSR and was crazy about the idea of Bolshevization of Europe and the whole world. Russia, which wasted a lot of forces and funds on its Comintern to destabilize the Western world.

Russia, which was the absolute world champion in the arms race in the 1930s. It should be noted that she started hyper-militarization since the late 1920s, when the external threat to it was minimal — the capitalist world embraced a severe crisis. Russia, which by the beginning of WWII was the most military country in the world in every sense of the word.

Russia, which was the world leader in the preparation of a big war all 10 years that preceded WWII. Russia, which entered this war as an aggressor, invader and combat ally of the Third Reich

And suddenly, according to the traditional version, which is practiced by both the Russians themselves and the majority of Western historians of WWII, after 1940 Russia became peace-loving and passive, and the German invasion turned out to be a complete surprise to her.

Now explain to me an interesting picture of that times.

Germany has been waging an aggressive war for two years. And the Russians see it very well. They have first-class intelligence in Germany and other countries, and her spies are sitting in a number of key departments and ministries of the Third Reich. Stalin has long known that the Germans had prepared a plan for the invasion of Russia. As far as I know, he knew that the Germans have developed Barbarossa plan.

At the same time, Russia continues with the growing pace of militarization of her economy and whole country and is ahead of the whole world in this issue. For six months now she has been conducting a massive transfer of her troops to the western border. A lot of her troops have already been placed right next to the border by the mid-June 1941.

Russia has already captured and annexed during the WWII half of Poland, part of Finland and Romania, and whole Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. It has a huge army, in which there were 26 392 aircraft (data on January 1, 1941) and 23.268 tanks (data on June 1, 1941). In June 1941, the Red Army had 303 divisions and 22 brigades of 4.8 million people, including 166 divisions and 9 brigades near its western borders.

In May 1941, the leadership of the Red Army and the Kremlin leaders received "Considerations on the strategic deployment plan of the Soviet Union in case of war with Germany and its allies" prepared by Tymoshenko and Zhukov.

This document stated that:

I. The first strategic goal of the actions of the Red Army troops is to put - the defeat of the main forces of the German army deployed south of the Brest - Demblin line and the exit to the 30th day of the operation on the front of Ostroleka, river Narev, Lovich, Lodz, Kreizburg, Oppeln, Olomouc.

The next strategic goal was to have: an offensive from the Katowice region in the north or north-west direction to defeat the large forces of the Center and the North wing of the German front and seize the territory of the former Poland and East Prussia.

The immediate task is to crush the German army east of the r. Wisla and Krakow direction, go to the river. Narov, Vistula and seize the area of Katowice.

For what:

a. the main blow by the forces of the South-Western Front to strike in the direction of Krakow, Katowice, cutting off Germany from its southern allies;

b. an auxiliary strike by the left wing of the Western Front to strike in the direction of Siedlce, Demblin, in order to hinder the Warsaw grouping and assist the Southwestern Front in defeating the Lublin enemy grouping;

c. conduct an active defense against Finland, East Prussia, Hungary and Romania and be ready to strike against Romania in a favorable environment. Thus, the Red Army will launch offensive operations from the front of Chizhov, Lyutovisco with the strength of 152 divisions against 100 Germanies. On the remaining sections of the state border provides active defense.

Thus, the Red Army will begin offensive operations from the front of Chizhov, Motovisko with forces of 152 divisions against 100 German divisions. On the remaining sections of the state border provides active defense

And now tell me once again about the traditional version of the events of the summer of 1941 in the east. The fact that the Red Army had gathered a tremendous strike power near the border with the Germans, and missed carelessly in the ignorance that the Germans were about to launch an offensive. And she did not prepare the invasion against the Germans at all. Pls tell me once again of all that
Stop with the binary choice options, the zero sum that either one has to accept the USSR planned to invade Russia (meaning Hitler was only launching a pre-emptive defensive war, lol) or else accept the Soviets were good guys. Those are not the only choices available.

You previously stated this: "The Russians were caught off guard because they themselves were preparing with all their might to begin the invasion of German territory. As far as I know the term of the Russian invasion was July 1941"

Your reply doesn't even discuss that. You even provided a memo sent to Stalin that he didn't act on. There was no invasion planned for July 1941, the Red Army weren't caught at assembly areas, there were no gigantic supply depots stockpiled with necessary supplies for an offensive invasion, etc. The Red Army was positioned on the Molotov Line because that's where the new border was. The Germans tried to use that as evidence later on that the Soviets were planning an attack. And yet the Polish were also forward deployed to their border, the Belgians, French, and British were also close to the borders. That is not an indication of invading the neighbor, its indication that politicans want to defend the border to prevent losing any ground if an attack occurs.

The Red Army forward units on the Molotov Line were poorly manned, not remotely close to their full complement of manpower, equipment, and supplies. Supply dumps either didn't exist or weren't filled. Radio communication towers didn't exist. Red Army forces near the border were flat out ordered by Stalin not to react at all in the initial couple days before the invasion even when at the tactical and operational level they'd realized they were about to be attacked, so were caught flat footed (like Pavlov, commander of Western Front). Stalin is known to have went into a fugue state in the early days of the war as he was in denial the war had started, it was too much a shock to contemplate. This is not what happens to a person who is planning a enormous invasion of an enemy in less then one month's time.

I get it, you don't like Russians. While you occasionally bring up good points your bias also makes you too overzealous in your prosecution of them, and it shows in how you constantly attempt to rewrite history. This thread is a perfect example. By claiming that Germany was the aggressor while invading the USSR doesn't mean at all the USSR were good guys. It doesn't change what they were, what they'd done, and what they would do in the future. It just means in that specific time something happened to them by someone else that was not what they were wanting to happen. Tone it down, this is a history forum, if you want to fight the Russians go join your nation's army and fight them in real life.
 
Likes: redcoat

redcoat

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,432
Stockport Cheshire UK
The novel has this Roon talking to Captain Henry after the fall of France. They are at an airfield in France which has recently been constructed in France by the German Army and Henry praises the Germans for building the airfield so quickly.
You are aware that the book you are referring too is a novel, and while loosely using historical events in its storyline is actually a complete work of fiction.
So why are you quoting it. ???
ps: Except when using ready built French airfields, the majority of Luftwaffe units in the BOB operated from grass airfields
 
Last edited:
Jan 2015
2,960
Rupert's Land ;)
Stop with the binary choice options, the zero sum that either one has to accept the USSR planned to invade Russia (meaning Hitler was only launching a pre-emptive defensive war, lol) or else accept the Soviets were good guys. Those are not the only choices available.

You previously stated this: "The Russians were caught off guard because they themselves were preparing with all their might to begin the invasion of German territory. As far as I know the term of the Russian invasion was July 1941"

Your reply doesn't even discuss that. You even provided a memo sent to Stalin that he didn't act on. There was no invasion planned for July 1941, the Red Army weren't caught at assembly areas, there were no gigantic supply depots stockpiled with necessary supplies for an offensive invasion, etc. The Red Army was positioned on the Molotov Line because that's where the new border was. The Germans tried to use that as evidence later on that the Soviets were planning an attack.
The Soviets died have significant mechanized forces deployed, not on the border but farther back, these were the assets that participated in the Battle of Brody. And the fact that the Soviets clearly were not ready for offensive (or defensive) operations in June 1941 doesn't discount the possibility that they may have been building up for an attack of their own in 1941 or 1942
 
Jan 2015
2,960
Rupert's Land ;)
While defensive minefields are useful (though even with these the German’s had nowhere nearly enough of them) the idea that WW2 submarines were capable of defending an area is unfounded, as I have already pointed out all a submarine is capable of is firing the odd torpedo at any warship as they pass by the subs location, and with the RN opting to use fast agile light craft to counter the invasion force their success rate in even this would have been very low.

ps: it should also be pointed out that the British had hundreds of minesweepers operational during this period and were capable of sweeping mines almost as fast as the German’s laid them, and that the British had their own defensive mine fields that the German’s would need to clear.
One of the requirements of the German naval plan was that the Luftwaffe needed to achieve complete air supremacy over the channel for two weeks to allow time for the navy to clear British minefields and lay their own defensive minefields without interference from either the RN and RAF, of course, this never occurred and the navy did not start this requirement before the operation was cancelled.
The other factor to consider, what was the German ASW capability? Could they prevent British submarines from ravaging the columns of transport barges?
 
Jul 2016
7,353
USA
The Soviets died have significant mechanized forces deployed, not on the border but farther back, these were the assets that participated in the Battle of Brody. And the fact that the Soviets clearly were not ready for offensive (or defensive) operations in June 1941 doesn't discount the possibility that they may have been building up for an attack of their own in 1941 or 1942
Mechanized corps were just part of their organization, by 1941 they were still the most mechanized army in the world, that they were near the Molotov Line, which defended the post-1940 border, wasn't unexpected at the least. Where else would they be?

What discounts that they may have been building for an invasion of their own in 1941-42 is basic proof. There are measures taken, staging, training, shifting of units, orders given, all of which indicate an offensive is planned, even if subordinate unit commanders aren't specifically told. None of this happened. There is absolutely no real proof the Soviets were actively prepping for an invasion of German territory. Were they eventually planning on fighting to the Germans, to include invading them? Absolutely, look at the increase in size of the Red Army from 1940-41 alone, it massively increased in size while they weren't at war, just for preparation. But they weren't planning any operation yet, Stalin's confusion in the lead days were proof that he mentally did not picture the war starting so soon. There was a political plan for the Soviets to attack Germany in 1939, but the UK and French wouldn't agree to ally with the USSR and pre-emptively attack Germany, so in desperation Stalin had Molotov reach out the Germans for a non-aggression agreement that would give them a few years to build their forces. But while there was a political plan, there was no military version, no legitimate actual written plan that told of which forces would be involved, when, where, how, etc. And once the non-aggression treaty was in force there doesn't seem to be any proof that Stalin was enacted any similar type of plan. Would he in the future when the time was right? Absolutely, the Ribbentrop-Molotov Agreement was a garbage treaty that was thought by both sides as temporary. But the Germans broke it first and were the only ones with a legitimate plan (Barbarossa) that was written out in detail, then executed in the many months long preparation time of moving troops and supplies, rehearsals, exercises, etc. needed for a major maneuver campaign.

Was Hitler or other members of his inner circle of the chief of the general staff deluded enough go believe they were ready? Probably yes, they believed a ton of other nonsense so why not that too? Post invasion Hitler is on record, his voice actually recorded with commander in chief of Finnish military, discussing that the Soviets unexpectedly had 35,000 tanks, and that Germany had destroyed 34,000 of them (those numbers wee not even close to real) and that was indication to Hitler that the Soviets definitely intended to attack Germany. Utter nonsense, but apparently Hitler believed it enough to say it out loud. Or he was just lying to an ally, which is exactly something Hitler would do when he believed it politically necessary (Hitler was not an honest man).
 

redcoat

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,432
Stockport Cheshire UK
The other factor to consider, what was the German ASW capability? Could they prevent British submarines from ravaging the columns of transport barges?
Their ASW capability was weak compared to the British, but even if it hadn't been the German’s had so few escorts there would have been plenty of chances to slip into the invasion fleet undetected and create havoc .
 
Jan 2015
2,960
Rupert's Land ;)
.
Their ASW capability was weak compared to the British, but even if it hadn't been the German’s had so few escorts there would have been plenty of chances to slip into the invasion fleet undetected and create havoc .
Indeed.
(I knew that you knew that too) ;)
An example is the German minelaying mission off Norway, the British submarine Salmon in Dec 1939, cruisers Nurnburg and Leipzig were both torpedoed, and Leipzig was pretty badly damaged.

Their escorts failed to find or attack Salmon
 

redcoat

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,432
Stockport Cheshire UK
Anyway I do not think that the Ukrainian rich fields were a strong argument for the Germans to start a war with Russia
The resource that effectively caused Nazi Germany to attack the Soviet Union was not food, but oil.
The British naval blockade was preventing the German's from accessing oil supplies from outside of Europe, and because of this even with the supplies of oil from the USSR the German's were eating into their fuel reserves, and if they didn't attack the USSR in 1941 they would not have the ability to attack the SU at a later date.
 
Nov 2015
1,474
Kyiv
Stop with the binary choice options, the zero sum that either one has to accept the USSR planned to invade Russia (meaning Hitler was only launching a pre-emptive defensive war, lol) or else accept the Soviets were good guys. Those are not the only choices available.

You previously stated this: "The Russians were caught off guard because they themselves were preparing with all their might to begin the invasion of German territory. As far as I know the term of the Russian invasion was July 1941"

Your reply doesn't even discuss that. You even provided a memo sent to Stalin that he didn't act on. There was no invasion planned for July 1941, the Red Army weren't caught at assembly areas, there were no gigantic supply depots stockpiled with necessary supplies for an offensive invasion, etc. The Red Army was positioned on the Molotov Line because that's where the new border was. The Germans tried to use that as evidence later on that the Soviets were planning an attack. And yet the Polish were also forward deployed to their border, the Belgians, French, and British were also close to the borders. That is not an indication of invading the neighbor, its indication that politicans want to defend the border to prevent losing any ground if an attack occurs.

The Red Army forward units on the Molotov Line were poorly manned, not remotely close to their full complement of manpower, equipment, and supplies. Supply dumps either didn't exist or weren't filled. Radio communication towers didn't exist. Red Army forces near the border were flat out ordered by Stalin not to react at all in the initial couple days before the invasion even when at the tactical and operational level they'd realized they were about to be attacked, so were caught flat footed (like Pavlov, commander of Western Front). Stalin is known to have went into a fugue state in the early days of the war as he was in denial the war had started, it was too much a shock to contemplate. This is not what happens to a person who is planning a enormous invasion of an enemy in less then one month's time.

I get it, you don't like Russians. While you occasionally bring up good points your bias also makes you too overzealous in your prosecution of them, and it shows in how you constantly attempt to rewrite history. This thread is a perfect example. By claiming that Germany was the aggressor while invading the USSR doesn't mean at all the USSR were good guys. It doesn't change what they were, what they'd done, and what they would do in the future. It just means in that specific time something happened to them by someone else that was not what they were wanting to happen. Tone it down, this is a history forum, if you want to fight the Russians go join your nation's army and fight them in real life.
 
Nov 2015
1,474
Kyiv
Mechanized corps were just part of their organization, by 1941 they were still the most mechanized army in the world...

... that they were near the Molotov Line, which defended the post-1940 border, wasn't unexpected at the least. Where else would they be?

What discounts that they may have been building for an invasion of their own in 1941-42 is basic proof. There are measures taken, staging, training, shifting of units, orders given, all of which indicate an offensive is planned, even if subordinate unit commanders aren't specifically told. None of this happened. There is absolutely no real proof the Soviets were actively prepping for an invasion of German territory. ....
- Yes, it seems that I do not like the Russians. They have done a lot against my Ukraine and my people to stop my love to them. And do you love them? In your posts you often look like a defense counsel of Russia.

The Red Army was on the Molotov Line because it’s where the new border was.

To remind you, where did the “new border” appear and why? I will tell you that before this another line of their mighty fortifications was built 500 km east. In particular, not far from Kiev in the first half of the 1930s, the Russians built about 250 powerful reinforced concrete pillboxes. This part of the defensive line of Russians was called KiUR - Киевский укрепленный район - the Kiev fortified area. And the Russians completely disarmed all these pillboxes in 1940. But even in this state, the Germans were forced to destroy these pillboxes for two months in the summer of 1941 - and in the end they were forced to turn around this KiUR together with Kiev itself from the north and from the south

The new border appeared after the Russians offered the Germans the Secret Protocol in August 1939 . But you, like a defense counsel of Russia, have forgotten about it completely. And you are trying to tell me that the Russians received a delay from the Germans for two years in August 1939 by signing a German non-aggression pact. You want to say that the Russians loved the German Nazis much more than the Poles, Estonians, Latvians, Finns and Romanians whom they attacked or blackmailed with brute military force, taking away large territories from their countries or all treir countries on the whole?

Or I did not understand something?

Russia entered the WWII as an aggressor and invader of the lands of other countries in September 17, 1939. And as the enslaver of their peoples. Why do you think that by 1941 she decided to become peace-loving and modest?

What for the Russians created their tank corps (2 tank divisions and 1 motorized in each corps)? The Germans with their blitzkrieg did not go further than the tank division. And the Russians created much more powerful blitzkrieg units.

The Germans first showed their blitzkrieg in 1939. And the Russians - 4 years before at the Kiev maneuvers. And they showed it for a reason - and they invited a whole crowd of Western military representatives and diplomats for the demonstration of the Russian blitzkrieg (Deep Operation).

You say the Russians had no plans for an offensive against Germany? Read my posts over the past couple of days. There you will find a link to the archived document. A plan of defeating the German army during the attack on the territory they occupied, prepared by Zhukov and Tymoshenko in May 1941 and sent to Comrade Stalin two months before the German invasion. These are Considerations for the strategic deployment of the forces of the Soviet Union in case of war with Germany and its allies:

...Thus, the Red Army will begin offensive operations from the front of Chizhov, Motovisko with forces of 152 divisions against 100 German divisions. On the remaining sections of the state border provides active defense.

... The subsequent strategic goal is to have: an attack from the Katowice region in the north or north-west direction to defeat the large forces of the Center and the North wing of the German front and seize the territory of the former Poland and East Prussia.


The immediate task is to crush the German army east of the r. Wisla and Krakow direction, go to the river. Narov, Vistula and seize the area of Katowice. For what:
a. the main blow by the forces of the South-Western Front to strike in the direction of Krakow, Katowice, cutting off Germany from its southern allies...


It remains to add that the Russians began to prepare for the big invasion of Europe 23 years before - in 1919.