If Germany only focused on defeating Britain instead of betraying Russia, would Germany have conquered Britain?

Nov 2015
1,474
Kyiv
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And do not pay attention to the phrases indicating the preventiveness of this plan. Over the past 80 years, almost all Russian seizures of foreign territories have been marked as "preventive" by the Russians. In 1939, they captured half of Poland, so that it "would not be seized by Germany." For the same reasons, they captured and annexed Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia, though at that time Russia was an official friend of the Third Reich and some kind of its ally. In 1980, the Russians flooded into Afghanistan, so that - you just do not laugh - right before the Americans come there.

And in 2014, they seized the Crimea from Ukraine in order to ... not let the Americans place their military bases there. So the plan of Tymoshenko-Zhukov in May 1941 was in no way preventive. It was a plan of a big raid into Europe and plan of the German army destruction , etc.

Maybe the Russians had a big plan to defend their country from the German invasion of 1941? Where is such plan? Have you seen it?

It never existed! Othervise the Russians would publish it 100 times within last decades. They are now trying to pass a completely different plan for such a plan - a Plan of cover the western border. План прикрытия западной границы.

Find it in inet. You will see that the Cover Plan means temporary protection of the western border from a preemptive enemy strike at a time when their own army is preparing for an invasion. Exactly that. And this Cover Plan is openly local and unconvincing for the role of a large Russian defensive plan.

Was there a "Thunderstorm Plan"? План "Гроза"? Absolutely - it was. But a solid part of Russian archives for the WWII is still strictly classified. Do not even hesitate. For such plan after its publishing would become a funeral song for all Putin's propaganda, where the "Great Victory over Fascism" plays a key role, and Russia in WWII looks like a victim of nazi aggression in 1941

In 1956, the Russian tanks came to Hungary in order to prevent the "surviving Hungarian fascists" from seizing it. In 1968 - in Czechoslovakia, for "the NATO troops could not manage to enter there before us"

I heard this declaration with my own ears - we then lived in a garrison in Germany 100 kilometers from Czechoslovakia.

And a year and a half before the plan of Zhukov and Tymoshenko, the Russian had already STARTED an invasion of Europe, capturing 3 countries there, and before that attacking Poland and Finland and biting part of their territory - as good as in Romania in 1940.

The Russians began active militarization of their country immediately after the West came into a severe crisis in 1929. And all the 10 subsequent years, Russia conducted extremely intensive preparations for war with the West.

In the first period of WWII - in 1939-1940 - the Russians had already attacked Europe and seized its part. Where did you get such confidence that the Russians did not plan a powerful blow to the German rear, when their army will get stuck with landing on the British Isles?

Two months after its birth, Soviet Russia began its first aggressive war - a war against the Ukrainian People’s Republic. And then Russia waged a war and conquering one neighbor after another. It was an extremely aggressive, militarized and expansive country, for which, as the Russians themselves say, war is like a mother. Кому - война, кому - мать родна

Russia in this format was a military country, and she showed her best effectiveness in military conditions. And in peaceful conditions, she was stumped in solving the simplest problems that other countries coped without difficulty. And so it was all 70 years of the history of Sovest Russia, however it was called at that time.
 
Likes: PlasmaTorch
Nov 2015
1,474
Kyiv
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How much time would it take to defeat the German state? From Belostok to Berlin - about 700 kilometers - almost the same distance separates Belostok from Gomel in Belarus. The Germans began the Eastern campaign on June 22, 1941, and on August, 18 they entered Gomel. 45 days for the Germans to break through the huge mass of Russian troops with heavy equipment and travel such a distance

How many do you think Russians with 11 thousand tanks in the first line of attack would break through the weak German rear to Berlin during the German landing operation against the British Isles? I think - within 2-3 weeks.

The situation in 1941 was not easy for the Russians. In 1940, the Germans launched the Battle of England in the air as the first part of the landing on the British Isles. This operation should have been very inspiring for the Kremlin leaders. If the Germans clear the sky over Britain, the next step would be the swift preparation of crossing the English Channel. And the transfer of most of the German forces to the strait with the naked ass of the Nazis turned to the east.

But the Germans lost the air battle, and the landing against the British was postponed. They began to break through to Persian oil through North Africa. And intelligence reported to Stalin about the movement of German divisions to Poland.

But the huge flywheel of the preparation of the Russian invasion of Europe was already rotated, and the Kremlin could not stop it quickly.

Hence some confusion of the Kremlin by summer of 1941 - though Russia were still preparing for the great offense. And from here the gigantic Red Army of the Russians, which turned out to be completely incapable of defending its territory in the summer of 1941 and suffered hard defeat within few months of 1941.

The army that the Germans attacked when it started to line up in offensive columns. And from here - Stalin's complete stupor, when he realized on June 22 that he did not manage to start first

As for the fact that the Russians had “few people” in June 1941 - let me remind you that they haven’t have made the GENERAL mobilization yet before June 22, 1941!

Historians break feathers, comparing the German forces in the east in the summer of 1941 with the Russians. But the German army was already fully mobilized - and the Russians had only a small covert mobilization before the German attack. But even so, they had enough strength to organize a dense and effective defense before the mobilization.

But they were not prepared for defense. And you can show any of your general staff officers a map of the location of Russian troops by June 22, 1941 - and he will immediately confirm this to you. The most powerful and most armed tank corps (Mechanized Corps) of Russians has been put forward to the Belostok projection. In it - about 450 new powerful tanks KV-1 and T-34, 1021 tanks in total . And it looked like a gun, put in the forehead to the Germans. The second strike group of Russians was also pushed to the west as much as possible - in the Lvov area.

What does it mean - these mighty Russian tank groups in June 1941? It means that the plan of Zhukov and Timoshenko they sent to Stalin was already in action. The Russian sent more and more tanks, artillery and soldiers to that groups to start an invasion soon. And their flanks were weak. And the Germans made a sudden blow to those weak flanks. And encircled a huge amount of Russian forces within the first days of their Eastern campaign.

As for the low serviceability of Russian tanks - I am very sorry for the rude answer - but I have evidence that it was actually HIGHER than the serviceability of German tanks by June 22, 1941. Something about 90% of Russian tanks of the first line were combat-ready for this date

According to the report of 15 June, 1941 9.9% of all Russian tanks required captial repair and were out of order, and 9.3% required mid repair and were treated as serviceable with some limitations.

At the same time, the Russians deployed huge ammunition depots near the western border. I have a summary of the heavy losses of ammunition in these Russian warehouses at the beginning of the German invasion.

Only in three border districts (PribOVO, ZOVOVO, KOVO) during the first 10 days after June, 22 several thousand railway cars of artillery equipment concentrated in the district warehouses were lost and destroyed during the withdrawal of our troops.

The surviving documents show that only on 17 exploded (during a hasty retreat - Dir) warehouses of these districts were 6.838 railway cars of weapons and ammunition, including 442 of artillery materiel, 5814 railway cars of ammunition, 181 cars of small arms, 401 cars of various artillery assets.

For reference, 1 railway cars of ammunition according to Russian standards in 1941 is about 16 tons of shells.

Did the Russians have little strength to invade? In June 1941 - yes, still not enough. But the huge mass of Russian troops was in the movement to the west - and the Germans often broke them on the move. It was not enough fuel for them? God forbid!

The Russians had 250 thousand tons of gasoline and diesel fuel in warehouses near the western border. They managed to create such a reserve there before the invasion of the Germans.

If we assume that half of it was intended for tanks, then each of the 10,000 Russian tanks of the first line would have about 12 tons of fuel. It’s more than enough to fight not only to Berlin, but also to Paris - and in any case to act very successfully in a defensive way against the Germans in the territory of Russia.

But instead, after the invasion of the Germans, both the tanks and the entire Red Army, which was not prepared for the defense of their country, acted extremely ineffectively. And the Germans in the course of their offensive and air attacks quickly destroyed or burned most of the reserves of Russian fuel, which was located too close to the border. And what the Germans did not have time to burn or to capture -the Russians themselves burned during a hasty escape

And I have a big request for you, aggienation. Please, in your answers rely more on documents and facts. And less - on emotions. The discussion with you here is not about love and hate for Russia and Russians, but quite another. About how the German Nazis entered into a deadly fight with the Russian Bolsheviks. Or even easier - about the big fight of two bandits in 1941
 
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Nov 2015
1,474
Kyiv
The resource that effectively caused Nazi Germany to attack the Soviet Union was not food, but oil.
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- Really? Could you find at least one phrase of oil, North Caucasus, Baku, Grozny, etc. in the Barbarossa plan? I haven't found anything of the sort there.

As far as I see, the Russian oil was not a goal of the German invasion. The problems with fuel appeared later - during the campaign.

The problem was that Romanian oil supplies to Reich sufficiently decreased. Initially it increased from 150,800 tonn in June 1941 to 361,600 in August. The reason was that the Romanians provided to Germans almost all oil they used for inner needs. And in October - just 222,800 tons. At that time the Reich turned to be a bad payer for the oil it imported.

So in December - just 108,000 tonn of Romanian oil for the Reich, and by February - just 71,000 tonn. As you see, the Germans met big problems with the fuel for its army and planes.

And only a few months after the start of the invasion of Russia, the German leadership began to think about the seizure of Grozny, and eventually Baku.

By the by the Russian trophy fuel was of so low octane that the Germans could not use most of it for its vehicles and planes

E.g. in 1940 more than 95% of the Russian aviation gasoline that they produced had an octane number from 70 to 74. And the major part of the Russian gasoline of that time had octane of 40-50.
 

Naomasa298

Forum Staff
Apr 2010
30,996
T'Republic of Yorkshire
Walls of text are not the best way to win your argument. Condense your rsplies please. If you must write tbis much text, consider a blog. This is a polite request from me. It wouldn't be a good thing if I need to get less polite.
 

redcoat

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,365
Stockport Cheshire UK
- Really? Could you find at least one phrase of oil, North Caucasus, Baku, Grozny, etc. in the Barbarossa plan? I haven't found anything of the sort there.
The plan was concerned with the military goals not the economic goals. The plan was the usual German plan, destroy the enemy forces and then capture their capitol, that in the German military mindset was enough to defeat the enemy, once that had been achieved the economic objectives would be there for the taking

Here's an article which illustrates the importance of oil in the invasion of the SU.
https://www.joelhayward.org/Hitlers-Quest-Finished.pdf.
 
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redcoat

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,365
Stockport Cheshire UK
- Yes, it seems that I do not like the Russians. They have done a lot against my Ukraine and my people to stop my love to them. And do you love them? In your posts you often look like a defense counsel of Russia.
He's not trying to defend anyone, he's merely pointing out fact's.
No matter how you try and spin it, German and her allies were the aggressors in their attack on the SU in June 1941.
 
Nov 2015
1,474
Kyiv
Walls of text are not the best way to win your argument. Condense your rsplies please. If you must write tbis much text, consider a blog. This is a polite request from me. It wouldn't be a good thing if I need to get less polite.
I agree - my text was too long for the forum.
 
Nov 2015
1,474
Kyiv
He's not trying to defend anyone, he's merely pointing out fact's.
No matter how you try and spin it, German and her allies were the aggressors in their attack on the SU in June 1941.
Yes, in June 1941 Germany and its allies looked as aggressors against Russia. But I do not think it is reasonable to separate this picture from another one. Before that Russia itself looked like a consistent aggressor and invader of foreign countries. And it was the same WWII.

And I must say that Russia did absolutely horrible things in the territories that it seized in 1939-1940 at the beginning of WWII.

Therefore, in my perception in June 1941 one aggressor attacked another aggressor in the WWII. As I said, it was a fight between two bandits. And note that the first weeks the fighting between the Germans and the Russians took place on the territory that the Russians had captured shortly before this from other countries during their aggression in the beginning of the WWII

Moreover the most part of fithting between Russia and Germany in WWII was on former territories of another states - as young as the Soviet Russia itself. She captured and annexed them in 1918-1920. And in these territories Russia provided before this war an occupation regime under the sign of Soviet republics. And the regime very often was harsh and inhuman And sometimes - like a real cannibal - worse than the Nazis. We must remember it, too.

You hardly know that the majority of Ukrainian villagers perceived the Germans in 1941 as their liberators from the nightmare that the Russian regime brought to these peasants before the war. And although the Germans behaved in relation to them far from the best way - in conversations with the old peasants about the war, I almost fell off my chair when I heard from them that it was easier with the Germans. The occupation of German nazis for the Ukrainian peasants was not so hard as the Russian occupation regime in 1930s for them!

It was easier for them to live under the Germans under the Russians. Much easier. And I heard this from them more than once. You can comment on it yourself.

And I do not think we have to sing along with the Russian propaganda, which completely separates Russia in WWII in 1939-1940, aggressive and related to the Third Reich by the official friendship treaty, a big supporter of Hitler, from Russia 1941, which became a victim of Hitler’s aggression

This part of the WWII in the Russian history the Russians isolated from the history of Russia in the war they called the Great Patriotic War. In that very special war they were no longer the aggressor, but looked like a victim of aggression and a great anti-fascist. Why should not the Germans, by Russian example, declare that since the fall of 1944 Germany was waging its Great Patriotic War against the aggressors that had befallen their country?

As to the role of Russia in the WWII, as the Russians themselves say, they count the chickens in the fall. Цыплят по осени считают.

And according to the results of WWII, Russia was an only country among the winners that annexed large territories, which it seized at the beginning of this war. And it put under tight political control a number of countries that it beat off from the Reich at the end of the war. And It provided them with the puppet pro-Moscow governments. I’m not saying that she annexed part of the land from Japan, although she started a campaign against Japan when it was about to throw out a white flag.

All that does not need to be forgotten when we discuss the role of Russia in the war.
 
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Jan 2015
2,917
Rupert's Land ;)
Yes, in June 1941 Germany and its allies looked as aggressors against Russia. But I do not think it is reasonable to separate this picture from another one. Before that Russia itself looked like a consistent aggressor and invader of foreign countries. And it was the same WWII.

And I must say that Russia did absolutely horrible things in the territories that it seized in 1939-1940 at the beginning of WWII.

Therefore, in my perception in June 1941 one aggressor attacked another aggressor in the WWII. As I said, it was a fight between two bandits.
I think that's a valid analysis.
This is essentially the view of Churchill, who was under no illusion that the Soviets were our dependable "Allies".
 
Jan 2015
2,917
Rupert's Land ;)
Mechanized corps were just part of their organization, by 1941 they were still the most mechanized army in the world, that they were near the Molotov Line, which defended the post-1940 border, wasn't unexpected at the least. Where else would they be?
As mentioned before, the Soviet mechanized korps weren't mostly on the Molotov line, or near the border, they were deployed in a large area between Rovno (now Rivne) and Kiev, or 175 to 350 miles from the border at Brest, greater than the distance from Paris to the border near Sedan. So unless you consider French units deployed in Paris to be "on the border", the 6 Soviet mechanized corps in 1941 weren't on the 1941 border. From a foreign perspective, it certainly might appear that the Soviets were building up a couple large mechanized armies for a future offenive.

Also, they weren't the most mechanized, just the largest.