If the Byzantine Empire survives, is an eventual Byzantine-Russian Union/Commonwealth possible?

[Futurist]

Kingdom of Poland and Grand Duchy of Lithuania had common border. Century or so before de jure establishment of the Commonwealth these two states had been unified through personal union aka marriage between the rulers of these two medieval states. Where is the common border between the Eastern Roman Empire aka Byzantium and Russia? During the time of Sviatoslav of Kiev they had one, but this had been before christianization of Rus and long before the establishment of Moscow grand duchy, tzardom and empire. How you gonna unite two entities that are situated on different parts of the continent with enormous distance between them, two states that had nothing in common but a religion?

If Russia will expand into the Caucasus and the Byzantine Empire will maintain the borders that it had in 1025, then the Russians and Byzantines are going to have a common border.

Perhaps--but as a Commonwealth (in the British sense, not the American). If the Byzantine Empire survived only as it was in 1453, Russia would be the dominant power.

What about if the Byzantine Empire would have kept the borders that it had in 1025?

 

[duncanness]

If I recall my Russian history correctly, the Russians had been pretty badly pressed by the Golden Horde and, more recently (to 1453) by the Kazan Kahnate. Ivan IV the Terrible was still in the future. Had the extent of the Byzantine Empire been as it was in 1025--holding all Turkey, southeastern Europe and the southern half of Italy,- I should think that Russia would have been the secondary partner. That is, at first. The Russian states were starting an ascent and the Byzantine Empire was self-destructing.

 

[duncanness]

If Russia will expand into the Caucasus and the Byzantine Empire will maintain the borders that it had in 1025, then the Russians and Byzantines are going to have a common border.


What about if the Byzantine Empire would have kept the borders that it had in 1025?

I clicked the wrong "reply" -- see #12 above. Sorry!

 

[Futurist]

If I recall my Russian history correctly, the Russians had been pretty badly pressed by the Golden Horde and, more recently (to 1453) by the Kazan Kahnate. Ivan IV the Terrible was still in the future. Had the extent of the Byzantine Empire been as it was in 1025--holding all Turkey, southeastern Europe and the southern half of Italy,- I should think that Russia would have been the secondary partner. That is, at first. The Russian states were starting an ascent and the Byzantine Empire was self-destructing.

Why did the Russian states begin to ascend?

 

[bedb]

No. Roman emperor sought to conquer. The setup of separate patriarchates in Orthodoxy is even worse for that goal than the one with the catholic church which is centralized, and still Germany, France, Italy, Spain for example were not in a union.
The whole idea of a church or religion providing military unity is foolish. Countries, kingdoms, have own strategic goals for survival and different enemies. There can be tactical alliances at times, but there can never be a common strategic defense plan unless one side decides to disappear.

you are correct but the point is the Patriarchs were not about controlling everyone the way the Catholic church did. This meant the real power stayed firmly in the hands of the rulers. Without the interference of the church, the rulers could better organize their relationships with one another. Also if Byzantine survived, Kiev would have survived too. And communications was spread over water not by horse or camel. Together the Russians and Byzantines along with other Chrisitan communities along the Black Sea could have joined together to face the Normans, Turks and Arabs,

 

[duncanness]

Why did the Russian states begin to ascend?

Arguably in the last years of Vasily II but certainly under Ivan III.

 

[thegreathoo]

Together the Russians and Byzantines along with other Chrisitan communities along the Black Sea could have joined together to face the Normans, Turks and Arabs,

What would be Russian strategic interest? Why would they defend Anatolia from Turks? Or Greece from the Normans?

 

[duncanness]

What would be Russian strategic interest? Why would they defend Anatolia from Turks? Or Greece from the Normans?

The Turks and the Arabs were Muslim and the Russians, who were throwing off the Golden Horde, might be apt to see a potential threat to themselves--or, at least, a common enemy. I don't think that they would worry much about the Normans by 1453.

 

[thegreathoo]

the Russians, who were throwing off the Golden Horde might be apt to see a potential threat to themselves.

By the time Kiev Rus was throwing off the Mongols, the Seljuks controlled everything but the city of Constantinople. It was too late.

 

[Futurist]

By the time Kiev Rus was throwing off the Mongols, the Seljuks controlled everything but the city of Constantinople. It was too late.

That's why the Byzantines should have avoided getting their butts kicked at Manzikert back in 1071!