If the Nazis Knew What They Would Need?

Aug 2016
734
USA
#1
What if the Nazis somehow knew exactly what warfare looked like like in modern times, but didn't weren't given more than the average layperson's knowledge about how to create modern weapons of war? Assuming, they still only had their original technological and industrial expertise, how might the war turn out?
 

Chlodio

Ad Honorem
Aug 2016
2,998
Dispargum
#2
The Germans were always going to be outproduced by the Allies. The Germans' only hope was that quality weapons would make up for numerical disadvantages. It didn't work, but if you remove the wonder weapons Germany would probably lose the war earlier. Remove the Me-262 and now you've got FW-190s vs P-51s. Remove the Tiger tanks and now you've got Pz IVs vs Shermans and T-34s. Remove the Type 21 submarines and now you've got more Type VIIs. I don't know where the resources from the V-1 and V-2 would have gone if not there, but I don't think those resources would have made much difference.
 
Apr 2017
639
U.S.A.
#3
They could have started with assault rifles, made a practical heavy tank design (like a better Panther or improved Panzer IV), either an improved jet design or as Chlodio stated mass produce Fw190s, Focus on U-boats and not battleships, don't waste time on V weapons, build long range bombers (the cancelled ural bomber), mass produce Arado bomers (it was almost untouchable late in the war), build a integrated radar network, have much more artillery integrated at lower levels (something they lacked) and transported with vehicles and not by horses.
 
Dec 2014
341
Wales
#4
Not much different I would say. Lets say you were able to go back in time with a full set of plans for a modern Leopard tank - do you really think Germany could produce such a thing? In a few short years could they develop computers, composite armour, an effective 120 mm gun? The development of the tiger pushed German resources to the limit, the creation of something as advanced as a modern battletank was far beyond their capability..

As far as modern tactics are concerned, they aren't that different to WW2 tactics except where advanced technology is concerned (such as helicopters, precision guided bombing, superior artillery, guided missiles etc). The basic principle of the modern battle-group was being used in WW2, albeit in a much more rudimentary form. Some tactics could help perhaps, but how long do you think it would be before the allies adapted to any tactical changes the Germans made?
 

starman

Ad Honorem
Jan 2014
3,743
Connecticut
#5
Remove the Type 21 submarines and now you've got more Type VIIs. I don't know where the resources from the V-1 and V-2 would have gone if not there, but I don't think those resources would have made much difference.
Type XXIs were a total waste because none even saw combat. They should’ve halted all new u-boat construction by 1942 and used the resources saved for more tanks, mines, antitank guns, mortars etc.
 

Nemowork

Ad Honorem
Jan 2011
8,169
South of the barcodes
#6
The Germans were always going to be outproduced by the Allies. The Germans' only hope was that quality weapons would make up for numerical disadvantages. It didn't work, but if you remove the wonder weapons Germany would probably lose the war earlier. Remove the Me-262 and now you've got FW-190s vs P-51s. Remove the Tiger tanks and now you've got Pz IVs vs Shermans and T-34s. Remove the Type 21 submarines and now you've got more Type VIIs. I don't know where the resources from the V-1 and V-2 would have gone if not there, but I don't think those resources would have made much difference.
The Tiger was a decent vehicle for 1940 and 41 when they started design concepts and the FW-190 was always more than capable of holding its own against P-51s which were a mediocre design.

The problem is in the men inside the vehicles. The Germans probably should have retained Pz 4 production so they could cover more of the front with armoured support rather than wasting resources on ultra heavy tank design but they would still have to find the crews to man them.
To get good tank crews or pilots you need someone young, fit, with technical skill and intelligence. then you need to train them for months in their specialities,get them into vehicles and qualify, then into units where they can learn tactics and the skills of relying on people covering your back and protecting and moving with other people.
It takes time and the Germans were short of those high quality men. the more casualties they took the faster and more inadequately trained the replacements were so the faster they lost them so they had to be replaced faster and so on. Add lack of fuel so they had to prioritise fighting units which meant limited training time for recruits and things get worse.
 
Jul 2016
7,353
USA
#7
Type XXIs were a total waste because none even saw combat. They should’ve halted all new u-boat construction by 1942 and used the resources saved for more tanks, mines, antitank guns, mortars etc.
The Battle of the Atlantic was a massive failure not because of Germany didn't have a good enough submarine, but because the Allies broke Enigma (and because new counter-sub equipment and tactics were refined). Had the Germans gone to a five rotor Enigma, then added another rotor every third month, they could have used remaining u-boats to much greater effect though they were never going to do anything more then make a tiny dent in troops and supplies crossing to Europe. Quite simply, even if it was possible (which it wasn't), the US industry was producing ships and supplies faster than they were capable of being sunk.
 
Jul 2016
7,353
USA
#8
For the Panzer IV, I believe there was only one, maybe two factories making Panzer IVs. Increasing their production in 1943-44 meant making more factories to support them, probably not the greatest idea since they'd basically rung everything they could out of the Panzer IV. What the Germans did need was a replacement medium tank. Unfortunately the tank they replaced it with, the Panzer V Panther, had major reliability and performance issues. The proper response should have been to halt production to fix those issues but they pressed ahead for the sake of making quotas (something every other nation did). Unfortunately this happened to Germany at a time they couldn't afford to not have enough tanks and those they did possess having poor quality too. They never came close to making their tank quotas, understandable since their production methods were horrifically ineffective, with only a single tank manufacturing factory that used an assembly line (and I think that was for limited production of Tiger I). A single Detroit tank factory used by the US produced more tanks then every one of Germany combined.

So while many claim the Germans sacrificed quantity for quality, with tanks and many other things, this is generally false. They sacrificed both quality and quantity because of bad engineering, bad manufacturing, bureaucracies, overall incompetence, and the expedience of military necessity.
 

starman

Ad Honorem
Jan 2014
3,743
Connecticut
#9
Quite simply, even if it was possible (which it wasn't), the US industry was producing ships and supplies faster than they were capable of being sunk.
U-boats did sunk more tonnage than the allies built in ‘42. They may have lost the tonnage war no matter what, but it would’ve helped had they used Type IXs exclusively in renumerative peripheral areas where allied defenses were weakest, and maintained radio silence while transiting to and from patrol areas.
 
Jul 2016
7,353
USA
#10
U-boats did sunk more tonnage than the allies built in ‘42. They may have lost the tonnage war no matter what, but it would’ve helped had they used type ix s exclusively in renumerative peripheral areas where allied defenses were weakest, and maintained radio silence while transiting to and from patrol areas.
You have a source for that claim? While it would have been high in '42, anti-submarine tactics were still rudimentary, the four rotor Enigma was introduced early in the year and it took the better part of the year before they cracked it, and '42 would have been the first year of the German ramped up U-boat production coinciding with the US ramped up ship production, which would obviously amount to huge losses. However, by late '42 the US was building Liberty ships from the keel up in the matter of days, there was no way the Kriegsmarine was going to seriously impede traffic unless they essentially cut production of everything else in Germany. And even then they'd only have had success if they figured out the Allies had broken the Enigma code. The chief aspect of this was a more secure Enigma, they should never have stopped adding rotors.
 

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