If there is no Holocaust, how do the Jewish communities of Eastern Europe look like right now?

Jul 2012
763
Australia
Perhaps they would be a bit like Fiji -
56% indigenous Fijian
37% descendants of 19th century Indian immigrants
7% others
Indo-Fijians dominate the economy while the indigenous Fijians dominate the professions, justice and government. Since independence in 1970 it has had 4 coups and 2 constitutional crises.

Not only were Jews a substantial minority in european countries, they too dominated the economy at a time economic relations were becoming the basis of society. Furthermore, the rural Jews lead a very distinct life - many regions had separate villages for Jews and local ethnic groups. This arrangement would cause substantial difficulties moving forward.

Zionism (or Jewish nationalism) was already active, responding to the already existing discrimination against Jews throughout Europe, and promoting migration to Palestine (which every year exceeded the agreed limits). Its presence would only heighten tensions between Jews and host nationals. In the late 1930's countries like Poland considered the option of resettling Jews to Madagascar.

Political instability seems the best central european countries would face. That means plenty of opportunities for countries to interfere in their neighbours internal affairs, on top of the already existing dissatisfaction of the post WW1 territorial arrangements.
 
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Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
5,767
No. They would be raised in a very secular manner and identify as inhabitants of their respective countries.
Well, they would identify as NN AND Jewish. They would be French and Jewish, German and Jewish, Dutch and Jewish, Norwegian and Jewish. Or British and Jewish for that matter. Or American and Jewish.

Same as today, more or less. Some form of traditional antisemitism might likely still have more currency in what's considered polite public debate, but then the Jewish communities would have rather a lot less collective trauma to go around.

It would make some hard to gauge differences for how post-WWI Palestine/Israel might develop. Probably rather a lot though.
 
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arkteia

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
4,723
Seattle
Well, they would identify as NN AND Jewish. They would be French and Jewish, German and Jewish, Dutch and Jewish, Norwegian and Jewish. Or British and Jewish for that matter. Or American and Jewish.

Same as today, more or less. Some form of traditional antisemitism might likely still have more currency in what's considered polite public debate, but then the Jewish communities would have rather a lot less collective trauma to go around.

It would make some hard to gauge differences for how post-WWI Palestine/Israel might develop. Probably rather a lot though.
Larrey, but what I see today, when totally secular, or reform, liberal Jews, still say that Judaism is important to them, don’t you think it is partially the result of the Holocaust? In Germany there were many Jews who converted to Christianity and married ethnic Germans, and were totally integrated, and Soviet Jews were definitely integrated before WWII.

However, when the Nazi started targeting the Jews, two things happened. One, many not belonging to this group started victim-blaming, and the other one, the Jews who survived, swore to become strong and never let history repeat itself. I do believe the Jews now hold on to their own, specifically because once they were targeted, and non-Jews did not even bother to protect them.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
21,922
SoCal
Larrey, but what I see today, when totally secular, or reform, liberal Jews, still say that Judaism is important to them, don’t you think it is partially the result of the Holocaust? In Germany there were many Jews who converted to Christianity and married ethnic Germans, and were totally integrated, and Soviet Jews were definitely integrated before WWII.

However, when the Nazi started targeting the Jews, two things happened. One, many not belonging to this group started victim-blaming, and the other one, the Jews who survived, swore to become strong and never let history repeat itself. I do believe the Jews now hold on to their own, specifically because once they were targeted, and non-Jews did not even bother to protect them.
Do German Jews frequently outmarry nowdays?
 

arkteia

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
4,723
Seattle
Do German Jews frequently outmarry nowdays?
German Jews are often immigrants from Eastern Europe. Perhaps they don’t as they emigrated as families, their children do, but I don’t know the frequency.

But in my post, I referred to all Jews. Not only the Jewish ones.

It is interesting how the Jews who survived the Holocaust managed to turn their traumatization, fear and anger into something very constructive and strong, the State of Israel.
 
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Apr 2018
979
Upland, Sweden
I still think many Jews would probably have migrated to the US even sithout the German genocide. Many Eastern European countries (arguably barring the Soviet Union and a few nore liberal others) don't seem to have liked Jews very much for historical reasons. Poland under Pilsudski had quite severe laws limiting Jews from many fields of society.

Much of the difference I can see would be in mentality and in Jewish self-conception, arguably - as @arkteia pointed out. For quite a number of Jews today it seems that their identity as Jews largely comes from a collective experience during World War 2. Ben Shapiro: Why Jews vote leftist (he mentions some interesting statistics about American Jews in relation to remembrance of the Holocaust in the beginning of the video). Anyway, things would probably have been much healthier all around, in every concievable way, without the Holocaust...
 

Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
5,767
Larrey, but what I see today, when totally secular, or reform, liberal Jews, still say that Judaism is important to them, don’t you think it is partially the result of the Holocaust? In Germany there were many Jews who converted to Christianity and married ethnic Germans, and were totally integrated, and Soviet Jews were definitely integrated before WWII.
Depends entirely on what role religions plays in society more generally. Not really all that much to do with the Jews themselves.
 
Jan 2017
1,309
Durham
They would probably not be “Jewish” and mix with non-Jewish ones. As was already the trend before WWII.
Was it the trend? It certainly was in Germany pre WW1, but I don't think it was in Eastern Europe.

There was a huge amount of hostility towards Jewish communities all over Eastern Europe.

I think many would have looked to emigrate, given their opportunities were limited, and their preference would have been the United States.

And, I think in Eastern Europe the division between Gentiles and Jews would have remained fairly entrenched.
 
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arkteia

Ad Honorem
Nov 2012
4,723
Seattle
Was it the trend? It certainly was in Germany pre WW1, but I don't think it was in Eastern Europe.

There was a huge amount of hostility towards Jewish communities all over Eastern Europe.

I think many would have looked to emigrate, given their opportunities were limited, and their preference would have been the United States.

And, I think in Eastern Europe the division between Gentiles and Jews would have remained fairly entrenched.
You are probably right if we take Poland. In the Soviet Union, however, Jews were assimilating rapidly. I would like to know how it was in Hungary, I read it was not too anti-Semitic but am not sure.