If there is no Holocaust, how do the Jewish communities of Eastern Europe look like right now?

Futurist

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May 2014
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@Tulun @NordicDemosthenes @arkteia I have a question for all of you--do you think that Eastern Europe could have accepted some or even many Mizrahi Jewish immigrants in a scenario where it would have had much more Jews and avoided Communism and also where Jews would have eventually began feeling very uncomfortable living in the Muslim world? For the record, this question certainly applies to countries such as Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, and Romania but can also apply to Russia as well if it would have also managed to avoid Communism in this scenario.
 

Tulun

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Nov 2010
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In Hungary there was already strong anti-semitism against the local Jews, a long historical opposition to the "Galicianer" immigrants, so I think this idea would be recieved with hostility.
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
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In Hungary there was already strong anti-semitism against the local Jews, a long historical opposition to the "Galicianer" immigrants, so I think this idea would be recieved with hostility.
How many Galician Jews moved to Hungary in the century before the Holocaust?

Also, what about other Central and Eastern European countries?
 

Tulun

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Nov 2010
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How many Galician Jews moved to Hungary in the century before the Holocaust?

Also, what about other Central and Eastern European countries?
Most Jews were of Galician origin in Hungary, a smaller and earlier part of them came from Germany and Bohemia Moravia. Only insignificant number of Jews lived in Hungary in the beginning of 18th century (maybe a few thousand max), basicly the ancestors of all Jews who lived in the Carpathian basin during the Holocaust, migrated to Hungary during the 18-19th century.

There were also a confusion within the Hungarian society how they precieved the issue.
The immigration of Galician Jews was continous since the late 18th century and apparently peaked around the middle of the 19th century, but they initially settled in the peripheric parts of the country. They also had a bigger natural growth rate, so when they (or actually their already Hungarian born children etc) later migrated within the country itself, they were also precieved as recent "Galician migrants". The public perception was an ever growing immigration of them. Of course there was also a continuing but less intensive immigration too (and transit, as many of them continoued to other countries), but most of their growth since the last decades of the 19th century was from natural growth rate. The reason why I mention this because this was also the way how anti-semitic politicians presented it, as the continous flooding immigration of the alien shady Galicianers.

I don't know what about other Central and Eastern European countries , but I think non of them were too fond of the Jews. Also you proposed a non-communist alternative universe, so the countries I guess would be either parliamentary democracies (with legal right wing and nationalist parties either in opposition or in government) or continued the right wing authoritarian regimes... not optimally welcoming for Middle Eastern Jews.
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
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Most Jews were of Galician origin in Hungary, a smaller and earlier part of them came from Germany and Bohemia Moravia. Only insignificant number of Jews lived in Hungary in the beginning of 18th century (maybe a few thousand max), basicly the ancestors of all Jews who lived in the Carpathian basin during the Holocaust, migrated to Hungary during the 18-19th century.

There were also a confusion within the Hungarian society how they precieved the issue.
The immigration of Galician Jews was continous since the late 18th century and apparently peaked around the middle of the 19th century, but they initially settled in the peripheric parts of the country. They also had a bigger natural growth rate, so when they (or actually their already Hungarian born children etc) later migrated within the country itself, they were also precieved as recent "Galician migrants". The public perception was an ever growing immigration of them. Of course there was also a continuing but less intensive immigration too (and transit, as many of them continoued to other countries), but most of their growth since the last decades of the 19th century was from natural growth rate. The reason why I mention this because this was also the way how anti-semitic politicians presented it, as the continous flooding immigration of the alien shady Galicianers.

I don't know what about other Central and Eastern European countries , but I think non of them were too fond of the Jews. Also you proposed a non-communist alternative universe, so the countries I guess would be either parliamentary democracies (with legal right wing and nationalist parties either in opposition or in government) or continued the right wing authoritarian regimes... not optimally welcoming for Middle Eastern Jews.
Huh; you're right about Hungary having very few Jews back in the early 1700s:




It's pretty cool that Hungary's Jewish population increased by almost a hundred-fold between 1735 and 1941. That's slightly more than 200 years. Interestingly enough, even with the Holocaust and emigration, Hungary's Jewish percentage right now (about 0.5%) is only slightly lower than it was back in 1735.

Anyway, back to your point here--Yeah, right-wing political parties are certainly going to be a huge pain in the ass in regards to this. That said, though, it's worth noting that, over the last several decades, the West has probably accepted tens of millions of immigrants from non-Western countries--some of whom might be much harder to assimilate than Mizrahi Jews are. Could Eastern Europe likewise see a similar egalitarian and mass immigration movement develop among its liberals in the late 20th century and beyond if it wasn't for Communism and its legacy?
 

Tulun

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Nov 2010
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As I understand your basic question is could Central and Eastern Europe (in economic development and building a successful welfare state) catch up to Western Europe if they avoid the commie reign ? Because accepting immigrants are just a consequence of it, they were well enough socially and their economy was large enough to demand foreign workers too.

Well the opportunity would certainly exist (Marshall plan was offered to the Central Eastern Europeans too), the economic gap was much smaller between us and our luckier Western neighbors before the communist reign than after it. I certainly consider the commie rule was holding us back, it was a 40 years waste. But I can't tell would our politicians use the Marshall plan wisely or steal all the cash :D
 
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Futurist

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As I understand your basic question is could Central and Eastern Europe (in economic development and building a successful welfare state) catch up to Western Europe if they avoid the commie reign ? Because accepting immigrants are just a consequence of it, they were well enough socially and their economy was large enough to demand foreign workers too.

Well the opportunity would certainly exist (Marshall plan was offered to the Central Eastern Europeans too), the economic gap was much smaller between us and our luckier Western neighbors before the communist reign than after it. I certainly consider the commie rule was holding us back, it was a 40 years waste. But I can't tell would our politicians use the Marshall plan wisely or steal all the cash :D
Couldn't the US monitor the Marshall Plan aid that it gives in order to ensure that it will be used properly, though?

Also, it's quite interesting--Japan experienced a lot of post-WWII economic development and yet didn't accept many immigrants. Ditto for both South Korea and Taiwan. Western Europe and the US, on the other hand, did accept a lot of immigrants. Maybe a part of it is nationalism being discredited in the West after WWII to a much greater extent than in East Asia (or in Israel, for that matter).
 

Futurist

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May 2014
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Tulun, I have another question for you: Had (almost) the entirety of Greater Hungary's Jewish population survived the Holocaust (which was actually very possible had Horthy remained Allied to Hitler right up to the very end as opposed to trying to make a separate peace with the Allies), just how many of them do you think would have emigrated either to Israel or to the West in the post-WWII decades? The reason that I am asking this is because Israel actually received relatively little immigration from Hungary in the post-WWII decades in real life in spite of there still being a lot of surviving Jews in Budapest at the end of WWII. Of course, I've also heard that Budapest's Jews were the most assimilated ones out of all of the Hungarian Jews--which is evident even right now, when only slightly more than 10,000 Hungarian Jews actually identify as Jews by religion while Hungary still has almost 50,000 Jews in total (presumably primarily concentrated in Budapest, since that's the only part of Hungary that didn't have its Jewish community almost completely wiped out by the Holocaust).
 

Tulun

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Nov 2010
3,943
Western Eurasia
I've seen it, but I can't add anything new other than what I already wrote in post #6. It would also depend on the post ww2 political climate but no matter what, overall their assimilation and intermarriage would continue and I would expect the country would have now 2-3% percent Jews, the rest (in 1930 they were 5,1% of the population in post Trianon Hungary) would either lose their Jewish identity all together or emmigrate to the West. I don't know what would be the trends in the neighboring countries, the Jews were mostly Hungarophones in those areas too, i don't know how would they manage their existance as a minority's minority, would they assimilate further into the Hungarian minority or maybe a dissimilation trend would occure there, adopting Jewish ethnic identity (that would increase sympathy toward Zionism too) or switching allegiance to the majority ethnic group? I don't know.
 
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