If you were in charge of Russia and wanted to expand into Ukraine, how much Ukrainian territory would you take?

Dec 2017
801
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I have already said that reproaching Ukrainians with antipathy towards Russia at the moment is the same as reproaching Russians with antipathy towards Germany in 1942 or 1943

To consider that all Russian-speaking Ukrainians are supporters of Russia and antipathies of Ukraine is the same as counting all English-speaking Irish as admirers of Great Britain and haters of their own country

In fact, Russia's aggression which began in 2014 highlighted the attitude of Ukrainians towards the country. There are simple statistics even on the problematic Donbass. Of the 3.5 million refugees from the region occupied by Russia (this is half of Donetsk and Lugansk regions), 3 million settled in non-occupied 23 regions of Ukraine - and only 0.5 million settled in Russia

Recently, Russia has published the number of residents of Donbass who have applied for Russian passports, which Putin is ready to distribute there left and right. Such inhabitants are about 2 thousand. That is, 0.1% of the current population of the region

In the Ukrainian troops half of them are Russian-speaking citizens of Ukraine. And they are fighting with the Russian forces. So, I would not be in a hurry to give Russia that part of Ukraine where there are a lot of Russian speakers. Russia can slip on this very much - as it has already slipped in the Donbass over the years
It appears, to me as an outsider, that you will will join anything and anyone in the mean time. To solve socio-economic problems escaping the Russian influence. Let's look at facts Ukraine became prominent during Soviet Era. Admit it. What countries recently joined EU say: Solve your own socio-economic problems yourselves.
Then you you will be invited in any Union, including the Arab league escaping Russian influence, which is in your mentality currently.
 

Dir

Nov 2015
1,957
Kyiv
There was no Kievan Rus. Kievan Rus is the term created by historians in the 19th century. There was Rus state that included territories of Belarus, north-western Russia and 2/3 of present day Ukraine minus southern-eastern and southern territories of present day Ukraine . I was writing about Ukraine within its current borders. Moreover, Rus was a loose state with 2 or 3 competing centres Kiev, Novgorod (Russia) , and possibly Polotsk (Belarus) The state existed between Oleg rule and Yaroslav the Wise rule - a relatively short period of time. Approximately between 890AD-1054AD. So read about history of Ukraine and you may know something.
You're right. There was no Kievan Rus. In the history there was only one real state with the official name Rus. The state of 10-12 centuries in the Middle Dnieper with the capital in Kiev and extensive possessions in Eastern Europe.

Her "metropolis" was called at that time Rus or Russian land (Русьская земля). And according to the chronicles and other documents written in the 11-12 century, this "metropolis" can be rather precisely localized. This work was done by Russian historians Nasonov, Rybakov and Robertson half a century ago. Actually Rus - or the metropolis of that large state was located in the area around Kiev, Pereyaslav and Chernigov. That is, entirely on some territory of modern Ukraine.

Novgorod has never been the center of Rus. Archaeologists do not confirm the existence of Novgorod until the 10th century on the contrary to the version of the chronicler Nestor who lived on the threshold of the 12th century. In the archaeological layers of that time on the site of Novgorod there was only sand and clay. A few kilometers from Novgorod built in the 10th century it was in the old time Gorodishche (a settlement) which historians conventionally called the Rurik one. We have no idea of its original name. It was purely Varangian and it cannot be considered the capital of the state of Rus in the 9th century for one simple reason. There are no real signs of the existence of any state in the area until the 12th century. In the 9c the Varangians were shifted to the south, settle in Kiev and make it the capital of a new big and strong state Rus.

When the state of Rus emerged in the Kiev region, Novgorod paid Rus tribute for a long time and received governors from Kiev from among the sons of the Grand Duke of Kiev
 

Dir

Nov 2015
1,957
Kyiv
Russia took exactly what it wanted to take: Crimea. Donetsk and Lugansk are only hostages to soften Ukrainian government. Inept EU does not count. Taking more would mean urban guerilla and nobody wants so counter that.

Russia did it masterfully.

- If you do not look at the consequences for Russia. And they were heavy. Russia lost 40% of her GDP (2015 vs. 2013) - 1 trellion US$ per year! - and received many other problems. And the Ukrainian government after that became much more anti-Russian than it was before the Krymnash (CrymeaIsOurs) . Russia seized the Crimea, but lost Ukraine - and got itself a real enemy right in her underbelly
 
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Dec 2017
801
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You're right. There was no Kievan Rus. In the history there was only one real state with the official name Rus. The state of 10-12 centuries in the Middle Dnieper with the capital in Kiev and extensive possessions in Eastern Europe.

Her "metropolis" was called at that time Rus or Russian land (Русьская земля). And according to the chronicles and other documents written in the 11-12 century, this "metropolis" can be rather precisely localized. This work was done by Russian historians Nasonov, Rybakov and Robertson half a century ago. Actually Rus - or the metropolis of that large state was located in the area around Kiev, Pereyaslav and Chernigov. That is, entirely on some territory of modern Ukraine.

Novgorod has never been the center of Rus. Archaeologists do not confirm the existence of Novgorod until the 10th century on the contrary to the version of the chronicler Nestor who lived on the threshold of the 12th century. In the archaeological layers of that time on the site of Novgorod there was only sand and clay. A few kilometers from Novgorod built in the 10th century it was in the old time Gorodishche (a settlement) which historians conventionally called the Rurik one. We have no idea of its original name. It was purely Varangian and it cannot be considered the capital of the state of Rus in the 9th century for one simple reason. There are no real signs of the existence of any state in the area until the 12th century. In the 9c the Varangians were shifted to the south, settle in Kiev and make it the capital of a new big and strong state Rus.

When the state of Rus emerged in the Kiev region, Novgorod paid Rus tribute for a long time and received governors from Kiev from among the sons of the Grand Duke of Kiev
I don't believe you. Not because Velikiy Novgorod (Государь Великий Новгород) is on the territory of present day Russia. Великий Новгород is a shadow of what it was.Государ Великий Novgorod is such an important city in Rus history. Don't ever forget it.

You should be beyond the crap written recently, knowing how important Великий Новгород is in our history. Varangians came from north. Varangians didn't fall from the sky. Oleg stated Kiev is the mother of all Rus cities. Oleg was a prince of Novgorod before entering Kiev. Oleg of Novgorod - Wikipedia

What was Kiev prior to Oleg? Paying tributes to Khazars? This is true. North-eastern, northern half of Ukraine was Slavic vassal to Khazars. Southern half was roamed by Polovtsy (Cumans), Pechenegs, Torks, Bulgars, Khazars. Even prior by Bulgars, by Hunns, Hungarians. This is your history, which you should not ignore. We know Slavic people from north-east to north-west of Ukraine: Severians, Polians, Drevlians, Volynians. South-west : Tivertsi, Ulichi. Transcarpathia - White Croats. Did I miss any Slavic tribe on the territory of Ukraine? Let me know. But I don't think so.

PS
I know about Ukrainian history more than 99% of people on this forum. I'd like to think so.
 
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Dec 2017
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Dir! Saint Sophia cathedral , after the cathedral in Constantinople were built in Kiev, Polotsk, Novgorod. Ever questioned why these cities were chosen for important cathedrals?

I met a l Turksih girl convincing me that Saint-Sophia in Instanbul is not a Church or a Mosque. It's a museum in Turkey. She'd kiss every part of my face saying , now the building is some kind of Museum.
 

macon

Ad Honorem
Aug 2015
4,105
Slovenia, EU
- If you do not look at the consequences for Russia. And they were heavy. Russia lost 40% of her GDP (2015 vs. 2013) - 1 trellion US$ per year! - and received many other problems. And the Ukrainian government after that became much more anti-Russian than it was before the Krymnash (CrymeaIsOurs) . Russia seized the Crimea, but lost Ukraine - and got itself a real enemy right in her underbelly
Yes but a nature of Russia's system (as of China's) is that they can take it. They are already growing. EU is only a paper tiger, it was very bad for Ukraine to turn on them (us). EU is politicaly useless.
 
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Dir

Nov 2015
1,957
Kyiv
I don't believe you. Not because Velikiy Novgorod (Государь Великий Новгород) is on the territory of present day Russia. Великий Новгород is a shadow of what it was.Государ Великий Novgorod is such an important city in Rus history. Don't ever forget it.You should be beyond the crap written recently, knowing how important Великий Новгород is in our history. Varangians came from north. Varangians didn't fall from the sky. Oleg stated Kiev is the mother of all Rus cities. Oleg was a prince of Novgorod before entering Kiev. Oleg of Novgorod - WikipediaWhat was Kiev prior to Oleg? Paying tributes to Khazars? This is true.

- You may not believe me a hundred times. But you must believe the chief archaeologist of Novgorod who has been excavating there for more than 50 years. I mean academician Yanin. He together with Aleshkovsky in their work "The Origins of Novgorod" declared that Novgorod was built in the 10th century, or rather, in the second third of the 10th century. Novgorod of the 9th century is the myth of Nestor, who lived on the threshold of the 12th century and did not have written documents of the 9th century. Rus simply had no written language at that time and Nestor could no a real chronologist of the events of the 9c - and even many events of the 10c in the area.

The phrase that Kiev will be the mother of the cities of Rus meant only tracing from the Greek language. The mother of the cities means metropolis in Greek . Kiev was the metropolis of Rus. No more and no less.

The State of Novgorod appeared in the 12th century and it was the first state where the Novgorod was a capital. It was called Novgorod Republic. When Rus originated in Kiev as a real state Novgorod paid tribute to her. Do I need to quote you the Tale of Bygone Years about that?

On the territory of Russia (not Rus) in the 9-11 century there really was no city larger than Novgorod. And I do not underestimate his role in the history of Russia. Unfortunately, Novgorod was a dead end in that history. Yanin writes that until the 14th century the city did not even have defensive walls.

Rus had three main centers - Kiev, Chernigov and Pereyaslav. They were part of her "metropolis", that is in the Rus land. Русьская земля. Novgorod can safely put in fourth place
In the 12th century, Novgorod separated from Rus and the Novgorod Republic appeared there, and it lives its own life. Similarly, the Rostov-Suzdal principality (Zalesye) in the was separated from Rus and lives on with its life. The Rostov-Suzdal principality (Zalesye) was in the region where can be considered the beginning of the Russian statehood. Further, it will extend by the Great Vladimyr principality. But the third in the list of Russian states will be the Golden Horde, part of which will be Russian lands for 250 years .

And please do not refer to the Russian wiki in this thread. There is so much heresy in it that about Rus and some other things in history that I have long since stopped trying to put everything in its place there. The whole team of Russian propagandists immediately tries to return the text to the in the format of Russian officialdom. I can only add that part of my editing in articles about the history of Rus in the Russian wiki still survived to this day.

North-eastern, northern half of Ukraine was Slavic vassal to Khazars. Southern half was roamed by Polovtsy (Cumans), Pechenegs, Torks, Bulgars, Khazars. Even prior by Bulgars, by Hunns, Hungarians. This is your history, which you should not ignore. We know Slavic people from north-east to north-west of Ukraine: Severians, Polians, Drevlians, Volynians. South-west : Tivertsi, Ulichi. Transcarpathia - White Croats. Did I miss any Slavic tribe on the territory of Ukraine? Let me know. But I don't think so.
This is true. But I must say that the bulk of the sedentary population of then-Ukraine lived on the right bank of the Dnieper. And there are no signs that this part of the population was a tributary of the Khazars. It remains to add that in Kiev there was no Khazar garrison, and the Varangians canceled the tribute of Kiev to the Khazars with a simple wave of their hand.

According to the 9th century Bavarian geographer, there were many hundreds of cities in the lands of the Drevlyane, Volynians and Ulichi in his time. So it was not by chance that the Varangians left the North and decided to form a new state on these rich and densely populated lands 1000 km to the south. Remind you that the number of cities in the lands of Novgorod even in the 12th century could be counted on the fingers of one hand?

Only not Polovtsy but Pechenegs. Polovtsy will come there later, in the 11th century. In any case, the entire sedentary population on the territory of Ukraine at that time was, obviously, Slavs.

In the Novgorod region it was Slavic-Baltic-Finnish (Yanin). Finnish nobility will play an important role in Novgorod also in the following centuries. Until the 11th century, there were practically no Slavs in the Volga-Oka interfluve. Only autochthonous Finno-Ugrians, slightly diluted with Balts (Golad)
 
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Dir

Nov 2015
1,957
Kyiv
Yes but a nature of Russia's system (as of China's) is that they can take it. They are already growing. EU is only a teethless tiger, it was very bad for Ukraien to turn on them (us). EU is politicaly useless.
Russian GDP really has been growing for the last two years. But this growth is twice lower than that of Ukraine (one and a half percent a year versus three in Ukraine). And anyone outside of Russia hardly can understand why Russia shits Ukraine for such a high price. To reduce Ukraine’s GDP by $ 90 billion a year, Russia took desperate steps that reduced her own GDP by $ 1 trillion a year. Nevertheless, Russia continues her project for Ukraine

Perhaps the reason for all this is the mystery of the Russian soul. Таинство русской души.

As for the EU, my enthusiasm for it has long been sour. My sister has long been living in Italy and talks about the realities of living under this blue flag. I have been in business with companies in Western Europe since 1993 and I see how everything is gradually blown away. This is a sad process.
 
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Dec 2017
801
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- If you do not look at the consequences for Russia. And they were heavy. Russia lost 40% of her GDP (2015 vs. 2013) - 1 trellion US$ per year! - and received many other problems. And the Ukrainian government after that became much more anti-Russian than it was before the Krymnash (CrymeaIsOurs) . Russia seized the Crimea, but lost Ukraine - and got itself a real enemy right in her underbelly
Krym-nash.Krym theirs is the region will be theirs. Even Russians loose 100% of their GDP, encountering other economics sanctions. Something Ukrainians don't understand. Because it's not yours to begin with.
 
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Dec 2017
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Ukrainians recollected about Crimean Tatars all of a sudden, since 2014. Who gave the official status to the Crimean Tatar language? The Russians after 2014. You still don't have a similar legislation and quite opposite in Ukraine. Crimean Tatars demonstrated to have land to build a larger Mosque since 90s. Did you let them? You let your oligarchs building in resorts, where people should not build.
Russians are building the largest Mosque in eastern Europe for Crimean Tatars in Simferopol. Take a look how large is the building. Russians do many other things for them. Come to Crimea and ask Crimean Tatars living in Crimea, if they like Russia or Ukraine. Not your half retarded few Tatars who are banned in most countries for being terrorists.