Imjin War

Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,749
United States
#52
And even the conquest and governance of Korea turned out to be a nightmare. The Korean navy and irregular forces essentially choked off the Japanese advance, making them pretty much immobile by the time the Chinese arrived. The navy blocked off their planned supply route along the coast, making them have to transport things overland which was obviously slow and increasingly risky because of the righteous armies. The righteous armies and just plain non-compliant commoners (which the Japanese were unused to) also made actual governance of territories other than major centers and fortified positions along the main road north very difficult. The Japanese didn't actually have much control over the countryside.

The Chinese presence was enough to pressure the Japanese south, who by this time realized conquering Korea turned out to be MUCH harder than they had anticipated. Conquering China was probably out of the question by this point.
 
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Jul 2015
283
Japari Park
#53
The organ gun hwacha was developed in 1409, but I'm not sure it would be a true machine gun.

My understanding is that Hideyoshi mistakenly believed Korea had submitted in 1590 (due to the deception by the Sou clan of Tsushima) and treated them like a rebellious province when they wouldn't let the Japanese armies pass through. Once they realized Korea was not going to comply they tried to subdue this rebellious region before moving on to China. Their plan was to annex most of East Asia and even India.
Then it predates Da Vinci one, I think.

Actually Joseon Court and Hideyoshi exchanged several diplomatic letters directly (without Ming court's knowledge until Ryukyu Kingdom warned them, which was one of the reasons Ming court was suspicious of Korea conspiring with Japan for something fishy at the beginning of the war) so Joseon's position was pretty clear to Hideyoshi. Joseon was also of a higher tributary status than Japan, and made it pretty clear about its superior status to the Japanese.

Of course Korea was always part of the plan, it was just not the biggest prize.
Invading Korea was the WHOLE plan, not part of the plan.

As a matter of fact, Japan did not even know how to go to China through Korea (i.e. with land route). Konishi Yukinaga and Kato Kiyomasa had to ask the Koreans for directions (to China) after they captured Seoul.
 
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Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,749
United States
#54
Actually Joseon Court and Hideyoshi exchanged several diplomatic letters directly (without Ming court's knowledge until Ryukyu Kingdom warned them, which was one of the reasons Ming court was suspicious of Korea conspiring with Japan for something fishy at the beginning of the war) so Joseon's position was pretty clear to Hideyoshi. Joseon was also of a higher tributary status than Japan, and made it pretty clear about its superior status to the Japanese.
They did before the war. The So clan of Tsushima recommended Choson send a congratulatory envoy to Hideyoshi on his unification, but they lied to Hideyoshi and said they were submitting. Also I don't think the Hideyoshi respected (or even understood very well) the tribute-investiture system, or cared about which states China recognized as superior. They were planning on conquering China, after all.

During the war they gave the Korean governors and other leaders multiple chances to submit and allow the Japanese to pass through, but none did.

I can't recall any instances of Hideyoshi and Sonjo during the war performing formal diplomacy, but I could have forgotten something. Do you have any examples?
 
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Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,749
United States
#55
Obviously the Koreans would have used Chinese recognition of them as superior to their advantage when dealing with other states. Doesn't mean the others would care in the slightest about it.
 

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,036
Republika Srpska
#56
The invasion of Korea was perhaps the only part of the plan that was actually planned in detail, but Korea was just a stepping stone to China. China was the big prize.
 
Mar 2012
4,404
#58
Obviously the Koreans would have used Chinese recognition of them as superior to their advantage when dealing with other states. Doesn't mean the others would care in the slightest about it.
It mattered to other states of the tributary system (which formed an international system), although Japan wasn't part of it in the 16th century. Any type of multi-lateral agreements between states also needs to take into consideration of this system or the Ming wouldn't conduct diplomacy at all with them (unless its forced to), this led to many difficulties in the first negotiation, where Konishi tricked Hideyoshi into believing the Ming conducted diplomacy with him as equals, when in reality, Konishi told the Ming that Hideyoshi was submitting. The Ming emperor bestowed the title King of Japan on Hideyoshi, gave him a Ming official robe, which Hideyoshi put on, thinking it was just a gift, and then read the letter praising Hideyoshi's loyalty to the Ming court. Hedyoshi then had Japanese monks translate the letter and discovered the true meaning behind it, he was furious, threw the robe down and almost executed the Korean envoys and Konishi for deceiving him and immediately resorted to war. Peace broke down because diplomacy with China cannot be conducted in any way outside of the tributary system during the Ming.

In the 8th century, when Japan was actually a part of the tributary system (albeit it didn't consider itself a vassal), there were fights over seatings in the Tang court with Silla. Even though Japan did not recognize Tang suzerainty like Silla did, the seating placement in the Tang court still mattered to them because it symbolized prestige in the international system revolving around the Tang in East and Inner Asia.
 
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Haakbus

Ad Honorem
Aug 2013
3,749
United States
#59
It mattered to other states of the tributary system (which formed an international system), although Japan wasn't part of it in the 16th century. Any type of multi-lateral agreements between states also needs to take into consideration of this system or the Ming wouldn't conduct diplomacy at all with them (unless its forced to), this led to many difficulties in the first negotiation, where Konishi tricked Hideyoshi into believing the Ming conducted diplomacy with him as equals, when in reality, Konishi told the Ming that Hideyoshi was submitting. The Ming emperor bestowed the title King of Japan on Hideyoshi, gave him a Ming official robe, which Hideyoshi put on, thinking it was just a gift, and then read the letter praising Hideyoshi's loyalty to the Ming court. Hedyoshi then had Japanese monks translate the letter and discovered the true meaning behind it, he was furious, threw the robe down and almost executed the Korean envoys and Konishi for deceiving him and immediately resorted to war. Peace broke down because diplomacy with China cannot be conducted in any way outside of the tributary system during the Ming.

In the 8th century, when Japan was actually a part of the tributary system (albeit it didn't consider itself a vassal), there were fights over seatings in the Tang court with Silla. Even though Japan did not recognize Tang suzerainty like Silla did, the seating placement in the Tang court still mattered to them because it symbolized prestige in the international system revolving around the Tang in East and Inner Asia.
Yeah I know all that. I was just saying that in the sixteenth century Japan wanted to conquer Korea and China, so they clearly didn't have even the basic respect for the tribute-investiture system, even if they may have understood Korea's position.
 
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#60
Obviously the Koreans would have used Chinese recognition of them as superior to their advantage when dealing with other states. Doesn't mean the others would care in the slightest about it.
Others were forced to care because of trade laws. The Chinese recognition of Joseon as prestieged member of the tributary system meant that Out of Northeast Asia, only Korea could trade with China. Japan and Manchuria could not trade with China because they were not deemed civilized enough. This is why British and Dutch played along with being tributary atates to China because only tributaries can legallly trade with china. Thus, if Korea could trade with china, Korea could trade with Japan/Manchuria, and Japan/Manchuria could not trade with china, Korea reaped great profit by playing the middleman between the China/Manchuria/Japan trade and taking a cut from all the transactions. Japan was very furious wih this arrangement because it left them impoverished. The Imjin war is sometimes analyzed to have the second objective of securing profitable trade routes with the biggest market in the world at the time(even today), China.

On the topic of what Hideoyshi's goal for conquest was, his plan was basically, 1. Conquer Korea. 2. conquer China. 3. Conquer Phillippines. 4. Conquer Southeast Asia. 5. Conquer India. 6. Conquer Europe.

The plan was a snowball effect getting newly conquered states to fiht to conquer the next state, by enticing them with spoils, loot, and land from the new target, and doing the same to that state's people. It worked during the unification od Japan, so they assumed it would work for the rest of the world.
 

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