Imperial Germany gives Home Rule to Posen Province

Futurist

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May 2014
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What if Imperial Germany would have given Home Rule to the Polish-majority parts of Posen Province (which was a province of Prussia--in this scenario, I'm having Germany split off this province from Prussia and having it become its own province)? :





Would such a move (especially if done early enough and/or if WWI would have been completely avoided in this scenario) have resulted in much more loyalty to Germany among Posen's Poles? Also, what other effects could this have had?
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
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Would not be imperial Germany if it did so.
A more liberal nationalities policy would have been out of the question even had Frederick III lived longer or even had Wilhelm II been much more like his father?

Sucession, revolt in congreee Poland follows.
Biting the hand that feeds you isn't a very good idea. :(
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
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SoCal
Please keep in mind that, AFAIK, the Polish-majority parts of the German Empire were relatively prosperous. Would Poles really be that unhappy with German rule if they would have been given more political rights and freedoms?
 
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pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,503
A more liberal nationalities policy would have been out of the question even had Frederick III lived longer or even had Wilhelm II been much more like his father?
It's radical change questions the foundation of the Empire. Less problematic for the German Empire than say Austria Hungary.

But it is a absolute attack on the Junker land owner class.

Biting the hand that feeds you isn't a very good idea. :(
It's psychology not logic. halfway houses are rarely successful.

Is Polish the language of administration (sacking all the existing German civil servants in the area)

Does the Poles contribute to and serve in the German Imperial Army?
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
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It's radical change questions the foundation of the Empire. Less problematic for the German Empire than say Austria Hungary.
So, it would have been even harder for A-H's leadership to have done this?

But it is a absolute attack on the Junker land owner class.
Yes--but what exactly are they actually going to do in response to this? Launch a coup? OK, but if this coup fails, they could very well get hanged for treason.

It's psychology not logic. halfway houses are rarely successful.
India with its local autonomies appears to have worked out relatively well. :)

Is Polish the language of administration (sacking all the existing German civil servants in the area)
Both Polish and German would be the languages of administration. In other words, Posen would have two official languages.

Having only Polish be the official language could create a feeling of separatism among Posen Poles that Germany certainly isn't going to want.

Does the Poles contribute to and serve in the German Imperial Army?
Yes, of course.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
21,877
SoCal
Please keep in mind that, AFAIK, the Polish-majority parts of the German Empire were relatively prosperous. Would Poles really be that unhappy with German rule if they would have been given more political rights and freedoms?
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,503
So, it would have been even harder for A-H's leadership to have done this?
of course because they are so many and so much of other nationalities.

Yes--but what exactly are they actually going to do in response to this? Launch a coup? OK, but if this coup fails, they could very well get hanged for treason.
.
The history of Prussian judges and right wing coups suggests a grandstand trial platform for speaking their grievances followed by a slap on the wrist.,

India with its local autonomies appears to have worked out relatively well. :)
I don't understand this smiley face stuff. I'm like ford they don't have this subtext where i came from and I often fail to detect it. Are sayng it did or it did not not?


Both Polish and German would be the languages of administration. In other words, Posen would have two official languages.

Having only Polish be the official language could create a feeling of separatism among Posen Poles that Germany certainly isn't going to want.
So all the officals are reminaing in place., How is this not just rule by Germans if the entire civil service is German?

Germans do not speak polish. If the is requirement for polish you have to sack all the Germans and hire poles. if German only is good enough the civil service remains unchanged and deeply hostile to poles.

Yes, of course.
But there is a seperarate Bavarian army. So this independence is less than Bavarian? if the Poles are allowed to have their own little army.. but if not they not like other German states.
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
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SoCal
of course because they are so many and so much of other nationalities.
OK.

The history of Prussian judges and right wing coups suggests a grandstand trial platform for speaking their grievances followed by a slap on the wrist.,
What about if the German Kaiser wants the death penalty for them, though?

I don't understand this smiley face stuff. I'm like ford they don't have this subtext where i came from and I often fail to detect it. Are sayng it did or it did not not?
I'm saying that they did. I used a regular smiley face :))) whereas I would have used a smiley face with a wink (;)) if I meant something else.

So all the officals are reminaing in place., How is this not just rule by Germans if the entire civil service is German?

Germans do not speak polish. If the is requirement for polish you have to sack all the Germans and hire poles. if German only is good enough the civil service remains unchanged and deeply hostile to poles.
Yeah, the civil service is probably going to need to be bilingual--so the Germans there are going to have to either learn Polish or lose their jobs.

But there is a seperarate Bavarian army. So this independence is less than Bavarian? if the Poles are allowed to have their own little army.. but if not they not like other German states.
Yeah, there's going to be a separate Posen Army.
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,503
OK.
What about if the German Kaiser wants the death penalty for them, though?
Hardly a large factor. There is a large conservative/junker/German bias in German courts. It looked very favorably on right wing terrorists/violence during the Wiemar people and it's the same judges. Interfering in the Courts, changing senoir civil service to get partizans in, well opposition is going to grow.

Changing the attitude one one person at the top does role out chnages through society easily. Yeah the Kaiser can have quite liberal attiudes /pro polish attitudes. But civil servants, judges, and people in positions of power across Germany have not changed. They are goingto kick back against changes they do not like.


I'm saying that they did. I used a regular smiley face :))) whereas I would have used a smiley face with a wink (;)) if I meant something else.
I honestly cannot see any difference between those two images. They look exactly the same , well if squint and look very carefully, I can see differences with the mouth. My distance vision excellent. Up close not so good. And I'm color blind. The red text used by some people sometime very very hard to read.

I don't understand these things. Why do people use them?


Yeah, the civil service is probably going to need to be bilingual--so the Germans there are going to have to either learn Polish or lose their jobs.
Well Germans are not going to learn Polish readily (it's just a thing across these multi ethnic society those who perceive themselves further up the hierarchy just don't learn the language "beneath'" them, were underclasss do) and they will be a large number of bi-lingual poles readily available. These sort of changes have to really focred. A lukewarm directive not followed up will be just nod and waved, at the local level, yes we're "bi langual" . It's something there well be lot of kick back and non-compliance. if the German bureaucrats and Judges are in the positions of power and review, why would they actively make sure this change happened. tehre going to be a conservative counter reaction that will not be exactly willing to carry these changes out. Reform just run a from a isolated person at teh top of the hiercahacy, opposed by all those down the chain. I think history tends to show that those with privileges faced with these sort of changes tend to bitch, moan, and unite against them much more than adapting to the new regime.

And if the Poles are really automous they very likely to just sack all the Germans. insist on Polish.

Yeah, there's going to be a separate Posen Army.
And when it invades Russian or Austrian Poland what happens? Provoking an incident would be the dream on many poles.

The Conservative Germans who run the Empire are not going to like arming poles regardless of how they behave.
 
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