Imperial Spain vs Ottoman Empire

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,379
Republika Srpska
You ignore numerous successes of the Ottomans in the 1700s including beating Russia in 1711, Austria in 1737-39 and recapturing Morea from Venice. These were no small feats. The main reason for Ottoman poor performance in the 1768-74 was actually a somewhat long period of relative peace the Ottomans were enjoying at the time, while Russia had fresh war experience from a massive European conflict, the Seven Years War. Add to that poor Ottoman logistics, clashes within the government and you get a disaster.
 
Likes: Kotromanic
Mar 2019
52
Belgium
You ignore numerous successes of the Ottomans in the 1700s including beating Russia in 1711, Austria in 1737-39 and recapturing Morea from Venice. These were no small feats. The main reason for Ottoman poor performance in the 1768-74 was actually a somewhat long period of relative peace the Ottomans were enjoying at the time, while Russia had fresh war experience from a massive European conflict, the Seven Years War. Add to that poor Ottoman logistics, clashes within the government and you get a disaster.

You forgot to mention the Turkish disaster during the war of 1716-1718 against Austria. In 1737-1739 ottoman were beaten by russian troop under the commandment of Munich. Munich was ready to conquer Greece when the tsarine signed the Belgrade treaty (mostly because of the Swedish threat). After this war , russian troops considered Turkish troops with disgust

The grocka defeat was totally unexpected, but all wars have incertain part. Spaniards won their independence war against Napoleon, it didn't mean that Spain was a major power on equal level with the French empire

Venice... please, we talk about a minor power who only gained Morea because 90% of Turkish troops were focus on the balkan campaign


I didn't say that the Ottoman Empire was broken during the 18th century but they were not anymore this feared empire from the 16th century. They were a secondary power like Spain, not more, not less
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,611
Spain
Spoken like a true Spaniard :)

You don't think Wellington's army had anything to do with it?
Not more than the Spaniards.. dear John... not more than the Spaniards....Wellington´s army was the best army in Peninsula... but never never the Wellington´s Army opposited 800.000 imperial soldiers, nor in a battle nor in a campaign... in the thirties in 19th Century there was a controversy between Wellington and Jourdan ... both writing letters in Newspaper...Wellington said as you.. the British Army won the War.... and Jourdan said...No way!!!

So, dear John... everything in just measure...in just measure....If we speak about Wellington´s army in Peninsular War.. we should speak about Spanish Army in Lepanto... OK, dear John?
 
Mar 2016
765
Antalya
If Ottoman Empire @ early 17th century was a joke. Why did it take 250-300 years for European states to finish Ottoman Empire? Either Europeans are very poor at warfare, or Ottoman Empire wasn't a joke until 19th century.
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,611
Spain
If Ottoman Empire @ early 17th century was a joke. Why did it take 250-300 years for European states to finish Ottoman Empire? Either Europeans are very poor at warfare, or Ottoman Empire wasn't a joke until 19th century.
Ottoman Empire was not a joke... and never was. In 20th Century.... the Ottoman Empire still had enough muscles to stop the British Empire in Gallipoli, Mesopotamia, Palestine for three years!... Japanese Empire didn´t last so much time against USA in Phillipines... for example.
 
Jul 2018
497
Hong Kong
If Ottoman Empire @ early 17th century was a joke. Why did it take 250-300 years for European states to finish Ottoman Empire? Either Europeans are very poor at warfare, or Ottoman Empire wasn't a joke until 19th century.
The Ottoman Empire was consistently a "great power" from the 17th century to WW1, though no longer the top-rated one since the crushing defeat in the late 17th century. And since the 19th century, she further declined to "the weakest among the great powers", but still strong and large, just no match to other great European powers.
 
Nov 2010
7,666
Cornwall
Not more than the Spaniards.. dear John... not more than the Spaniards....Wellington´s army was the best army in Peninsula... but never never the Wellington´s Army opposited 800.000 imperial soldiers, nor in a battle nor in a campaign... in the thirties in 19th Century there was a controversy between Wellington and Jourdan ... both writing letters in Newspaper...Wellington said as you.. the British Army won the War.... and Jourdan said...No way!!!

So, dear John... everything in just measure...in just measure....If we speak about Wellington´s army in Peninsular War.. we should speak about Spanish Army in Lepanto... OK, dear John?
Hi Martin

If we put aside our national patriotism - and as you know I will stick up for Spanish history just as much as English - the perception around the world is that the Iberian part of the Napoleonic Wars is the Peninsula War and it is celebrated for Wellington driving out the French armies noted by the big battles (I won't bother listing them). I think that played a major part myself. The poster referred to only the Spanish driving out the French, which I think is imbalanced. It's only known as the Guerra de la Independencia in Spain. Don't really care what Jourdan said - well he would, wouldn't he - to cover up his own inabilities
 

martin76

Ad Honorem
Dec 2014
6,611
Spain
Hi Martin

If we put aside our national patriotism - and as you know I will stick up for Spanish history just as much as English - the perception around the world is that the Iberian part of the Napoleonic Wars is the Peninsula War and it is celebrated for Wellington driving out the French armies noted by the big battles (I won't bother listing them). I think that played a major part myself. The poster referred to only the Spanish driving out the French, which I think is imbalanced. It's only known as the Guerra de la Independencia in Spain. Don't really care what Jourdan said - well he would, wouldn't he - to cover up his own inabilities
Dear John

I know how much you know about History of Spain.. specially about history of Medieval Spain... as a professor. I think we are talking the same with different words... Peninsular War (or la Guerre d´Espagne as the French write) is celebrated because many reasons... first Because as you know.. for Napoloen was the first cause of his fall down... Second because it was a Total War (Jomini) the French Empire could never suffocate..
You also know I ve always written the victory belong to Spain-Portugal-United Kingdom... three (not to one)...
British historian wrote the Victory was due to Britain.. (for example, Napier, Tome I, preface, page XV) and Spain did nothing.... for spanish historian as Arteche.. British did nothing... because the bulk of French Forces opposited Spanish not to British.
Spain was not a big battles war...not Wagram or Eylau (although french suffered more KIA in Spain than in any other place between 1792 to 1815..).. the battles were small and middle size... the Peninsular War was distinguished because many actions.. thousands actions...and sieges.
 
Mar 2019
52
Belgium
If Ottoman Empire @ early 17th century was a joke. Why did it take 250-300 years for European states to finish Ottoman Empire? Either Europeans are very poor at warfare, or Ottoman Empire wasn't a joke until 19th century.

Because like I said early. After the Russo turkish war of 1770. There were agreement between western power to not destroy the ottoman empire in order to stop Russian progression. In the late 18th century and 19th century Russian arrived nearly the wall of Constantinople in every war but didn't continue in order to prevent a war with other western powers. Ottoman empire was a puppet-buffer state at this time.

Gallipoli victory didn't stop the conquest of Constantinople by the allies. Of course at the same time Russian had taken Trabzon. The Russian revolution saved the turks at the end. It obliged Russian to go back to their land (the Russian high commandment had been killed by bolcheviks) and western powers gave back their conquest (and Constantinople) in order to fight against communist.

Ottoman were not strong.It just that their disappearance would distord the European power balance