Is a Fascist Russia likely to be an expansionist power or a status quo power?

Nov 2015
1,930
Kyiv
Yes, the Bolsheviks attacked Ukraine. I never denied that. It does not erase their later policies.
... And by 1922 it was 22% and by 1933 60%.
- right after the end of the Holodomor campaign, which destroyed several million Ukrainians? It is clear that after this joining the communists for many ones who remained gave a chance for survival.

Yes, and? Stalin killed many prominent Bolshevik leaders. That does not erase Soviet Ukrainization nor makes it non-Soviet.
- NEP was Soviet, too. Meanwhile that does not matter that Russian Bolshevism became capitalist for several years. Both Ukrainization and NEP were just forced and temporary retreats of the Russian Bolshevism

The reprisal against the Ukrainian intelligentsia and the action of the Holodomor began long before the Great Purge of 1937-1938 in which many Russian and non-Russian Bolsheviks suffered. I want to remind you that the noisy trial of the "Union of Liberation of Ukraine" - 45 accused, 220 volumes of the case - began in 1929. In fact, no Union of Liberation has ever existed. This case was completely fabricated against the Ukrainian intelligentsia.

By "Ukrainize" it meant the spread of Ukrainian language and the promotion of Ukrainian culture after centuries of being ruled by the RUSSIAN Empire that implemented Russification
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As I already said, the Ukrainianization campaign for the occupying Russian regime in Ukraine meant first of all an attempt to camouflage the blatantly Russian character of this Bolshevik authorities. Soviet Russia did not dare to stop the powerful cultural upsurge that began in Ukraine in February 1917 - with the lifting of bans on Ukrainian education and language adopted by the tsarist government at the end of the 18th century

It is clear that this campaign was used by those Ukrainians who advocated for Ukrainian education and Ukrainian culture. And Moscow was not the initiator of all this. In tthe 1930s all these activists of Ukrainian culture fell under the Moscow ax

Yes, you are so quick to point out how the Nazis were so much better than the Soviets
- not this way. I just write that the Russian occupation regime in a number of important things in the 1930s was even worse than the German one in 1941-1944. Of course, in some ways the Russian occupier was better - but in something - much worse.

But that would contradict your "Russians are evil" narrative.
- For Ukrainians since 2014 this is no longer a topic for discussion. In the same way as for the Serbs in 1942 there was no topic for discussion of the thesis "the Germans are evil." I do not mean all Russians - but Russians from Russia, who supported her aggression against us in February 2014 with two hands - and advocated sending Russians to eastern Ukraine to kill our soldiers there. Russia has been fighting against us for 5 years, and this is a very dirty war. About 15 thousand Ukrainians died in it. And you probably expect compliments from me for her?
 

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,419
Republika Srpska
- For Ukrainians since 2014 this is no longer a topic for discussion. In the same way as for the Serbs in 1942 there was no topic for discussion of the thesis "the Germans are evil." I do not mean all Russians - but Russians from Russia, who supported her aggression against us in February 2014 with two hands - and advocated sending Russians to eastern Ukraine to kill our soldiers there. Russia has been fighting against us for 5 years, and this is a very dirty war. About 15 thousand Ukrainians died in it. And you probably expect compliments from me for her?
And I think this is the key here. Your dislike of Russia is directly connected to the war in Donbass. It would be if this board existed in the 90s and had Yugoslav members.
 
Likes: Futurist

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,419
Republika Srpska
@Dir
Look at it this way: you live in Kiev, or at least that is what your profile shows. Had the Nazis won, there would be no Ukrainian Kiev. Heinrich Himmler considered it a German city and believed that one could "easily do without 80 to 90 percent of them (Kievans)". Need I remind you that the Germans, anticipating food shortages in the winter of 1941-42, cold bloodedly decided that "Kiev must starve"?
 
Likes: Futurist
Nov 2015
1,930
Kyiv
Look at it this way: you live in Kiev, or at least that is what your profile shows
Yes, I am from Kiev, and I was born here, and all my paternal relatives are Kiev.

Had the Nazis won, there would be no Ukrainian Kiev. Heinrich Himmler considered it a German city and believed that one could "easily do without 80 to 90 percent of them (Kievans)". Need I remind you that the Germans, anticipating food shortages in the winter of 1941-42, cold bloodedly decided that "Kiev must starve"?
.

- terrible, isn't it? They are very, very bad, these Nazis. And I don't doubt it for a minute. But we agreed to listen less to the words the Nazis and the Bolsheviks said, and less to discuss their plans. And focus more on what they actually did.

So - the fact is that damned Nazis destroyed Kiev 20 times less, than brotherly Moscow authorities. Before the Russians left the city, it was almost intact. Only a few bombs fell on its outskirts.

The Russians during their departure blew up all the bridges across the Dnieper, all power plants, water towers and essentially deprived the city of infrastructure. So survive as you can after us .

But these were only flowers.

On September 19, 1941, the Germans entered Kiev. They were in a festive mood, behaved quite restrained, and the people of Kiev did not expect anything bad.

A week later, the first powerful explosion sounded in the center of Kiev. Then the mighty explosions went one after another, and after them a powerful fire started. The whole center of Kiev was destroyed. The mass of the inhabitants of the city and about two hundred Germans were killed. There exploded powerful Soviet mines laid by Russian sappers before leaving. For explosion they used the F-10 radio fuse initianted by a radio signal sent from Voronezh.

The Germans captured in the Kiev bag one of the sappers who mined the city. Lieutenant Lavrinenkov. And he pointed to some landmines that had not yet exploded.


Here the Germans carry out boxes with 3 tons of trinitrotoluene, found in the Museum of Lenin. The building has survived to this day. And the Germans brought by plane long fire hoses from Krakow. They stretched them from the Dnieper and tried to extinguish Khreshchatyk. The central street of Kiev. But Soviet saboteurs cut these hoses.

As a result, the central part of Kiev began to resemble Stalingrad in the winter of 1942.







After these explosions, the Germans also staged a mass execution of Jews in Babi Yar.

The last victim of Russian land mines was the beautiful Assumption Cathedral of the 12th century in Kiev Lavra. It exploded in early November. During these hours, Lavra was visited by the Slovak Prime Minister Tissot - but he managed to get out of the Lavra a few minutes before the explosion.

And the other two early churches in Kiev - St. Michael's Cathedral and the Church of the Assumption of the Virgin the Russians blew up in the late 1930s. They had to blow up the St. Sophia Cathedral according to the plan - but the bastard Nazis prevented.

Ukrainians rebuilt all these churches in the 1990s.
 
Nov 2015
1,930
Kyiv
And I think this is the key here. Your dislike of Russia is directly connected to the war in Donbass.
- Hmm... As I see, you consider that the dislike of Ukrainians for Russia is a convincing reason for her aggression against Ukraine. By the way, you know that in all opinion polls up to 2014 the percentage of Ukrainians who were sympathetic to the Russia and the Russians was twice that of the Russians who were sympathetic to the Ukraine and the Ukrainians
 

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,419
Republika Srpska
- terrible, isn't it? They are very, very bad, these Nazis. And I don't doubt it for a minute. But we agreed to listen less to the words the Nazis and the Bolsheviks said, and less to discuss their plans. And focus more on what they actually did.
Okay, focus on actions. There was a famine in Kiev during Nazi rule just as the Nazis intended. Kievans also suffered deportations to German labor camps and Gestapo terror. May I remind you that the SD in September and October 1942 noted that Kievans uttered things like:
"We're supposed to die of starvation to make place for the Germans."
A member of the Communist Party secretly entered Kiev in November 1941 and reported the following:
"Those whom I happened to see were mainly disabled old men and women. Emaciated or swollen from hunger, they roam the streets and walk from house to house in search of charity. Kiev has become a city of beggars."
A resident, Iryna Khoroshunova wrote in his diary on October 22nd:
"There is no bread. Many are already starting to swell up. Olia is starving, she has swollen up and has a temperature of 39.3 degrees."

So - the fact is that damned Nazis destroyed Kiev 20 times less, than brotherly Moscow authorities. Before the Russians left the city, it was almost intact. Only a few bombs fell on its outskirts.
Okay, but keep in mind that by 1943 most Kievans absolutely hated the Germans and were quite ready to welcome the Soviets back in.

The Russians during their departure blew up all the bridges across the Dnieper, all power plants, water towers and essentially deprived the city of infrastructure. So survive as you can after us .

Scorched earth policy is never nice, but it can hardly be used as an example of Soviet oppression of Ukraine. The Germans did same things during their withdrawal, burning villages, destroying infrastructure etc. I'll use Himmler's words: "It is neccessary that in retreating from the regions of Ukraine we do not leave behind a single person, head of livestock or measure of grain. The enemy should find there a completely burned and devastated land."

The last victim of Russian land mines was the beautiful Assumption Cathedral of the 12th century in Kiev Lavra. It exploded in early November. During these hours, Lavra was visited by the Slovak Prime Minister Tissot - but he managed to get out of the Lavra a few minutes before the explosion.

And the other two early churches in Kiev - St. Michael's Cathedral and the Church of the Assumption of the Virgin the Russians blew up in the late 1930s. They had to blow up the St. Sophia Cathedral according to the plan - but the bastard Nazis prevented.
Brutal, but once again it can hardly be used as evidence that the USSR specifically targeted Ukraine. They also famously demolished the Church of Christ the Saviour in Moscow.
 
Likes: Futurist
Jun 2016
1,784
Russia
What about my second question here?

Also, was Russification continued after Stalin's death as well?
It seems you believe that evil Bolshevics begun to russify the nations of Tsarist Russia, prohibited national culture, literature, national literature, national education. Absolutely wrong! There are douzens may be hundreds ethnicities in Russia and and nearly all of them had no written language before Revolution. Muslim nations used Arabic script to write somehing from national literature, which surely fitted very badly for their languages. Siberian and North ethnicities had no written language at all. Illiteracy was horrible. Some people believe that Stalin catched, tortured and executed people all his very day. In reality his duty were exactly national affairs (in 20s). It is his achievement that all Soviet ethnicities, even smallest have their written language, own education, culture and literature. Of course all of them were taught Russian as well, because any one has the right for work anywhere he wants and to get any education he want, to be artist, scientist, general etc. Without knowledge of Russian it would be impossible, because most ethnicities are very small and have no big culture centers.
As for Ukrainian and Belorussian these languages remained because of artificial Ukrainization and Belarussization. These languages are very similar to Russian. Ukrainian was for example never translated in tv. To learn extra Ukrainian language for all Ukrainian kids was useless trouble. That's why lot of people with names ending by "-ko" are written as Russians.
 
Nov 2015
1,930
Kyiv
Okay, focus on actions. There was a famine in Kiev during Nazi rule just as the Nazis intended. Kievans also suffered deportations to German labor camps and Gestapo terror. May I remind you that the SD in September and October 1942 noted that Kievans uttered things like:
"We're supposed to die of starvation to make place for the Germans."
A member of the Communist Party secretly entered Kiev in November 1941 and reported the following:
"Those whom I happened to see were mainly disabled old men and women. Emaciated or swollen from hunger, they roam the streets and walk from house to house in search of charity. Kiev has become a city of beggars."
A resident, Iryna Khoroshunova wrote in his diary on October 22nd:
"There is no bread. Many are already starting to swell up. Olia is starving, she has swollen up and has a temperature of 39.3 degrees."

Okay, but keep in mind that by 1943 most Kievans absolutely hated the Germans and were quite ready to welcome the Soviets back in.
While I was talking with you, I've found in an Internet A diary of the Kievite woman - Дневник киевлянки (1941-1944)

Дневник киевлянки

And she writes, and I know myself, too that some people in Kiev were starving after the Germans came. But there is a radical difference between the starvation of Ukrainian citizens in the German occupation - and the targeted and massive seizure of grain and food from millions of Ukrainian villagers during the Holodomor campaign 1932-1933. There it was a targeted campaign of the Russian occupation authorities.

And the hungry Ukrainian cities during the German occupation do not look as a German target. The Kievite woman who kept the diary was very pro-Soviet - despite the fact that her mother apparently died in the Stalinist camps. This is another illustration of how young citizens in Ukraine and other places in the USSR were brainwashed by Russian authorities.

So - she writes that the Germans more than once gave bread to the inhabitants of Kiev. Bread was not given enough - but this does not look like an attempt by the Germans to exterminate the inhabitants of the city. Moreover - in 1942 or 1943 the Germans allotted land to the Kievans for gardens to seed vegetables and, it seems, even distributed potatoes and other seedlings for crops to them. And those Kievites who got a job in the administration received food rations.

So the Nazis could write anything about the practice of their occupation regime in Ukraine - but I see no signs that it was an attempt of mass extermination of Ukrainians in 1941-1944 - as the Moscow occupation regime did in 1932-1933.

In no case do I justify the Nazi occupation of Ukraine. I just want to say that for the bulk of the Ukrainian population the Russian occupation of Ukraine before WWII in many deeds was much harder and tougher than the German one in 1941-1944. Not in all deeds - but in critical ones.

And a Kievite woman writes first that the Soviets before their flight from Kiev blew up or burned everything they could in the city - bridges, factories, water pumps, power plants, etc. And when the Germans came - then they blew up the whole center of Kiev.

With this, start your words of Kiev under the German occupiers.

That is, the Russian occupation regime left the people of Kiev without water, light and heat. The fact that during the retreat the Soviets burned out wheat fields and massively killed cattle that they did not manage to take out is also a reality.

And therefore I am sure that the Russian occupation regime during its flight from Ukraine the fate of our citizens was no less indifferent than for the Nazis
 

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,419
Republika Srpska
While I was talking with you, I've found in an Internet A diary of the Kievite woman - Дневник киевлянки (1941-1944)

Дневник киевлянки
I quoted Khoroshunova. Are you even reading my posts?

And she writes, and I know myself, too that some people in Kiev were starving after the Germans came. But there is a radical difference between the starvation of Ukrainian citizens in the German occupation - and the targeted and massive seizure of grain and food from millions of Ukrainian villagers during the Holodomor campaign 1932-1933. There it was a targeted campaign of the Russian occupation authorities.
Have you ever heard of the Hunger Plan? I already mentioned "Kiev must starve". The Nazis were deliberately starving Kiev.

So - she writes that the Germans more than once gave bread to the inhabitants of Kiev. Bread was not given enough - but this does not look like an attempt by the Germans to exterminate the inhabitants of the city. Moreover - in 1942 or 1943 the Germans allotted land to the Kievans for gardens to seed vegetables and, it seems, even distributed potatoes and other seedlings for crops to them. And those Kievites who got a job in the administration received food rations.
So the Nazis could write anything about the practice of their occupation regime in Ukraine - but I see no signs that it was an attempt of mass extermination of Ukrainians in 1941-1944 - as the Moscow occupation regime did in 1932-1933.
I think I've already showed enough proof that the Nazis indeed planned a massive starvation of Ukrainians.