Is a Fascist Russia likely to be an expansionist power or a status quo power?

Dir

Nov 2015
1,957
Kyiv
Okay, but keep in mind that by 1943 most Kievans absolutely hated the Germans and were quite ready to welcome the Soviets back in.
- Not all. I well remembered two Kiev grannies. They sat opposite me at the wake of my relative. It was more than 10 years ago. They talked among themselves. And they spoke Russian. First scolded Yushchenko - they did not like him. And then suddenly one said the other - do you remember the Germans?

Tell me - they didn’t touch our people just like that, for no reason, did they? And the second granny nodded her head in agreement.

And here are the urs ... Then she fell silent - and then added. - They took people unclear why. And they muzzled people just like that - no one could understand why. Today was a man - and tomorrow there is no man. And no one asks where he has gone. We were all very afraid

Scorched earth policy is never nice, but it can hardly be used as an example of Soviet oppression of Ukraine. The Germans did same things during their withdrawal, burning villages, destroying infrastructure etc. I'll use Himmler's words: "It is neccessary that in retreating from the regions of Ukraine we do not leave behind a single person, head of livestock or measure of grain. The enemy should find there a completely burned and devastated land."
- I'm not very interested in what the Germans said. I know that they burned or blew up something in Kiev. But this was at best a few percent of what the Russians burned or blew up in 1941.

Again - for the Germans, we were a foreign population in the occupied territories. Nevertheless, Grigory Malakhov, one of the famous Kiev residents wrote in a book of memoirs that the Germans, had taken his brother out of the city with his kindergarten to the resort suburb - with the personnel of the kindergarten. By the by - it was a family of the Soviet officer who fought the Germans at the time. And the Germans arranged kindergartens in Kiev for such children

And they gave them two bags of flour and a bag of sugar. There the children were later found by Russian soldiers. For some reason, the Germans led our civilian population out of the cities when large-scale shooting was being expected there. Moreover, they even took our old people from Kiev from the nursing home from Kiev. They did a number of things that were completely incomprehensible, based on the thesis that they wanted to destroy us

Again - you will not find anywhere in the Germans an order similar to the Russian order. It appeared when the Germans were approaching Moscow -

SUPREME HIGH COMMAND OFFICE
ORDER
dated November 17, 1941 No. 428

ON THE CREATION OF SPECIAL TEAMS FOR THE DESTRUCTION AND BURNING OF SETTLEMENTS IN THE REAR OF THE GERMAN FASCIST TROOPS
Moscow

...
Supreme High Command ORDERS:

1. Destroy and burn down all settlements in the rear of German troops at a distance of 40-60 km in depth from the front line and 20-30 km to the right and left of the roads.

For the destruction of settlements within the specified range, immediately send aircraft, make extensive use of artillery and mortar fire, reconnaissance teams, skiers and partisan sabotage groups equipped with Molotov cocktails
(in original - бутылки с зажигательной смесью - Dir), grenades and subversive weapons ....

Приказ Ставки ВГК от 17.11.1941 № 428 — Викитека

- Have you seen the Germans destroy their own settlements - without thinking about how many of German inhabitants will be burned there or lose a roof over their heads? And this is November 1941 - the very severe Russian winter of 1941-1942 began. Does this Russian practice not seem cannibalistic to you?

After all, this is precisely what the unfortunate Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya did, which was later made the famous Soviet heroine. She burned the huts of Russian peasants in the villages in the 40-degree frost

Brutal, but once again it can hardly be used as evidence that the USSR specifically targeted Ukraine. They also famously demolished the Church of Christ the Saviour in Moscow.
- Funny.

The church is a rather ugly Russian cathedral of the 19th century. And the Kiev churches that the Russians blew up are of the 12-13th century. They are unique. Tell you that the Russians did not blow up ANY of their 12-13th-century churches in the 1930s? Neither in Novgorod the Great, nor in Vladimir-on-Klyazma, nor in Suzdal, nor in Rostov. No one. And they have blown up almost all the medieval temples in Kiev in the 1930s and in 1941. Only Sofia miraculously survived. There were plans to demolish the temple too - and to arrange an Avenue of Parades on this site. I have a detailed book with these plans and schemes of the Soviet development of the ancient part of Kiev in the 1930s-1940s

Maybe I have to tell you that Kiev was completely destroyed - even worse than under Batu in 1240 - in 1482. And the Crimean Tatars Mengli-Geray did it at the direct instigation of Moscow Tsar Ivan the Third. It was he who strongly advised the Crimean Khan - his "brother" - to burn Kiev. And in gratitude, the khan then sent to Moscow valuable church relics from the Kiev temples burnt by these Busurmani. These are facts that you can’t get anywhere.
 

Maki

Ad Honorem
Jan 2017
3,649
Republika Srpska
- Not all. I well remembered two Kiev grannies. They sat opposite me at the wake of my relative. It was more than 10 years ago. They talked among themselves. And they spoke Russian. First scolded Yushchenko - they did not like him. And then suddenly one said the other - do you remember the Germans?

Tell me - they didn’t touch our people just like that, for no reason, did they? And the second granny nodded her head in agreement.

And here are the urs ... Then she fell silent - and then added. - They took people unclear why. And they muzzled people just like that - no one could understand why. Today was a man - and tomorrow there is no man. And no one asks where he has gone. We were all very afraid

Anectodal evidence.

- I'm not very interested in what the Germans said. I know that they burned or blew up something in Kiev. But this was at best a few percent of what the Russians burned or blew up in 1941.
Scorched earth is never a nice strategy. Besides, why would the Germans blow up Kiev? After all, it was Kiroffo, a German city.

Again - for the Germans, we were a foreign population in the occupied territories. Nevertheless, Grigory Malakhov, one of the famous Kiev residents wrote in a book of memoirs that the Germans, had taken his brother out of the city with his kindergarten to the resort suburb - with the personnel of the kindergarten. By the by - it was a family of the Soviet officer who fought the Germans at the time. And the Germans arranged kindergartens in Kiev for such children
How nice of them. They were arranging kindergartens while their leaders were planning Kiev's starvation.

And they gave them two bags of flour and a bag of sugar. There the children were later found by Russian soldiers. For some reason, the Germans led our civilian population out of the cities when large-scale shooting was being expected there. Moreover, they even took our old people from Kiev from the nursing home from Kiev. They did a number of things that were completely incomprehensible, based on the thesis that they wanted to destroy us
Oh, come on. They deliberately restriced the flow of food into Kiev, increasing rations only when situation became completely desperate, turned Kiev into the city of beggars and hungry people, but they did not want to destroy the Ukrainians.

Again - you will not find anywhere in the Germans an order similar to the Russian order. It appeared when the Germans were approaching Moscow -
Nero Decree - Wikipedia

- Have you seen the Germans destroy their own settlements - without thinking about how many of German inhabitants will be burned there or lose a roof over their heads? And this is November 1941 - the very severe Russian winter of 1941-1942 began. Does this Russian practice not seem cannibalistic to you?
It was brutal and I do not doubt that but it was not specifically targeting the Ukrainians.

The church is a rather ugly Russian cathedral of the 19th century
Why am I not surprised that you think this famous Russian church is ugly?

At this point we are simply moving in circles. You have your opinions, rather coloured by nationalistic bias, I have mine. Let's just agree to disagree.
 
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Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
22,247
SoCal
I was able to find some relevant information in regards to this:


"Under his leadership, Rodzaevsky envisioned Russia taking back Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Finland, and in addition, he planned to annex Romania, Bulgaria, Iran, Afghanistan, and Mongolia.[1]:170"

So, a Fascist Russia is likely to be an expansionist power but on a much more limited scale than Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, and Imperial Japan were in real life. It would have been quite interesting to see Fascist Russia spark a war over Persia/Iran in a hypothetical scenario where Russia goes Fascist. Sparking a war against Afghanistan wouldn't make much sense since Afghanistan could be useful as a potential ally against Britain and Russian expansion into Europe (even into formerly Russian territories) would have been risky unless Germany would have approved of this expansion.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
22,247
SoCal
These were radical German plans. And only one question for their implementation - who would work in the fields and factories in the vast territory captured by the Germans? The Germans were severely lacking even for the provincial garrisons in the territory that they managed to capture. And the overwhelming majority of villages in occupied Ukraine and Belarus in general did not have a single German, not only in the police force (schutzmanshaft), but also in the authorities for these places

E.g. in a large village in the south of Kherson region (Southern Ukraie) with the 1500 peasant houses where my mother lived until the autumn of 1942, there were not a single German - after their troops went east. And the vast provincial territories of the Ukrainian Right Bank were effectively controlled by the UPA. The Ukrainian national partisans. And the Germans sat in cities and had big problems with collecting grain and other food from Ukrainian villagers.

What would happen if the Germans captured much more land in the East than they have got by the end of 1942? No German colonists would solve the problem of a shortage of working hands. Therefore, all these plans for the deportation of the Slavs to the Urals were nothing more than the fruitless fantasies of the Nazis.

In fact, over the several years of occupation the inevitable localization of the occupation regime took place, and from it some kind of semi-autonomous surrogate was obtained.
The Germans could import administrators for the East from Germany itself--similar to how I suppose Britain recruited administrators for British India from Britain itself. As for the lack of working hands, Yes, that might initially be a serious problem. So, that might give the Slavs in Eastern Europe some breathing space. Ultimately, it might very well depend on just how long the Nazi regime will remain in power. If it will remain in power for centuries, then over time there should be much, much more German settlement in the East due to the fact that "breeders" (as in, people who have a lot of children) are going to become a larger and larger percentage of Germany's total population over time. So, if Nazi Germany will survive for centuries, I do expect large numbers of Germans to at least settle in the urban and suburban parts of Eastern Europe. As for the rural areas, well, they're no longer going to need as much manual labor as they did before due to industrialization, urbanization, and technological advances. For instance, nowadays less than 20% of the US's total population actually lives in rural areas. So, if less manpower is going to be need for rural areas, that could pave the way for more German deportations of Slavs further east.