Is American freedom superior to European freedom?

Nov 2014
377
ph
#1
Should Europe as a whole adopt American ideas about freedom and get rid of its welfare state and loosen labor laws and introduce right to work laws and get rid of collective bargaining to maximise individual freedom at the expense of collective welfare? And should Europe adopt American second amendment and make firearm ownership a right because Europe is not free enough?
 

M9Powell

Ad Honorem
Oct 2014
4,416
appalacian Mtns
#2
Absolutely on the 2nd amendment. Actually i think Europe does better on some other things such as health care & transportation. And that's coming from an American GI that knows Europe pretty well. The Swiss seem to do OK without draconian gun laws.
 
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Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,369
Portugal
#3
Should Europe as a whole adopt American ideas about freedom and get rid of its welfare state and loosen labor laws and introduce right to work laws and get rid of collective bargaining to maximise individual freedom at the expense of collective welfare? And should Europe adopt American second amendment and make firearm ownership a right because Europe is not free enough?
I think that the Europeans that want that can migrate to the USA.

Joke apart, there seems to be a strong new right, with USA populist and demagogic influences, raising in many European countries that want to be liberal in certain things (economy, guns, labor laws, corporate power, retreatment of the state of traditional areas, like security, health and education), and not so liberal in others (freedom of speech, peoples movements).

This Atlantic fracture can lead the thread in a partisan path, but in my opinion, since this is a personal choice, there are no god sources that can be cited here, I prefer to live in a continent where in most of the countries there is some support for those who need medical care, were the difference between rich and poor is not so extreme, and where the chance to meet someone armed to the teeth is rare, where the mass shootings in the schools are rare, where a political leader doesn’t suggest that the teachers, like myself, should be armed in the schools.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,369
Portugal
#4
Don’t know if I was clear in my previous post, but I wanted to say:

No. I don’t think that the freedom in the USA is superior; I think is inferior to most of the European countries. Especially since 9/11, and most especially in the last years.

No. I don’t think that “Should Europe as a whole adopt American ideas about freedom and get rid of its welfare state and loosen labor laws and introduce right to work laws and get rid of collective bargaining to maximise individual freedom at the expense of collective welfare”. Huge economic differences turn the people to less free. Slaves of an economic consumer system.

No. I don’t think that Europe should “adopt American second amendment and make firearm ownership a right because Europe is not free enough”.

Generally, after the WWII, and mostly in the post-cold War period, the exportation of freedom from the USA has been quite tragic. Iraq is the best paradigmatic example.
 

M9Powell

Ad Honorem
Oct 2014
4,416
appalacian Mtns
#5
I prefer to live in a continent where in most of the countries there is some support for those who need medical care, were the difference between rich and poor is not so extreme, and where the chance to meet someone armed to the teeth is rare, where the mass shootings in the schools are rare, where a political leader doesn’t suggest that the teachers, like myself, should be armed in the schools.
And I would reply that despite a media frenzy too the contrary, there is some support in the USA for those that need medical care, I completely agree with you on rich vs poor, and the chance of meeting someone armed to the teeth in the USA is rare, mass shootings in our schools are rare & no one is proposing arming all teachers, only those that are ex military or ex police & want to be able too carry. Ohh, & people in the USA that like Europe better can go there also.

PS That political leader that you mention also has an European wife, one would think she has some influence over him.
 
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Fantasus

Ad Honorem
Jan 2012
2,381
Northern part of European lowland
#6
While I cannot speak for others, not even for compatriots, my own view is: we should absolutely not. At least so regarding those areas I know enough about to comment.But, OK, I must admit I have had little personal experience with the US or americans (while I know about US-relatives, and guess there are more of them). And I would be surprised if US people of influence and power would accept much of foreign origin.
 

redcoat

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,685
Stockport Cheshire UK
#7
Should Europe as a whole adopt American ideas about freedom and get rid of its welfare state and loosen labor laws and introduce right to work laws and get rid of collective bargaining to maximise individual freedom at the expense of collective welfare? And should Europe adopt American second amendment and make firearm ownership a right because Europe is not free enough?
No, no and no.
 

Tulius

Ad Honorem
May 2016
5,369
Portugal
#8
And I would reply that despite a media frenzy too the contrary, there is some support in the USA for those that need medical care, I completely agree with you on rich vs poor, and the chance of meeting someone armed to the teeth in the USA is rare, mass shootings in our schools are rare & no one is proposing arming all teachers, only those that are ex military or ex police & want to be able too carry. Ohh, & people in the USA that like Europe better can go there also.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the USA is the country in the world with more guns in private hands, in number and per capita, and the country in the world were more shootings in schools happen. The number of people incarcerated is also among the highest in the world, per capita.

As for the guns in the schools, just imagining the possibility of a fellow teacher (either ex-military or ex-police or ex-something) could bring a gun to a school, it would lead me to avoid the school, unless I could also bring one (in preference a bigger one), and that would lead another fellow teacher to bring another one, even bigger!!!! Maybe I just think that the increase of guns leads to the increase of its use. We even had terrorist attacks in Europe with knifes and automobiles!!!

And yes, half-joking, the people from the USA, can migrate to Europe, as they often do (and vice-versa), well… as long as they don’t bring the guns (and here it is not a joke)

In any society there must be a equilibrium between the individual and the society. Furthermore the liberty is not infinite, my liberty ends when the liberty of the fellow citizen next to me begins. The general goals of a community, the general good of a community, is stronger that the general goal of a single individual, that is why there a common laws that interfere with the individual liberty in some aspects, mainly security, health, and education.

PS That political leader that you mention also has an European wife, one would think she has some influence over him.
I hope so, albeit I don’t believe so. It would depend if she falls in the “trophy wive” category, those generally don’t speak much. Besides, I tough that she was already a USA citizen.
 

redcoat

Ad Honorem
Nov 2010
7,685
Stockport Cheshire UK
#9
Absolutely on the 2nd amendment.
Well it is true that the majority of people in the UK are unhappy with the present gun laws. In the last poll done on the subject in 2010 it was found that nearly 70 percent thought that guns should either be totally banned or face greater restrictions, only 4 percent thought they should be relaxed.
When it comes to guns the British and Americans are not only not on the same page, they are not even on the same book.
 
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robto

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
5,986
Lisbon, Portugal
#10
Should Europe as a whole adopt American ideas about freedom and get rid of its welfare state and loosen labor laws and introduce right to work laws and get rid of collective bargaining to maximise individual freedom at the expense of collective welfare? And should Europe adopt American second amendment and make firearm ownership a right because Europe is not free enough?
Why getting rid of the Welfare State will bring more "freedom" to the average person?

Can you define clearly to what you meant by "freedom"? You mean freedom of the individual to make choices for themselves? If that's the case, why having more of it is fundamentally better and beneficial? That's a genuine question