Is American freedom superior to European freedom?

Aug 2010
15,010
Welsh Marches
That's no proper basis for spreading such claims. I have made a quick search on the internet and can find nothing whatever about this; he is such a hate-figure that I cannot help thinking that the evidence would have been preserved if he had made such a tweet.
 
Jan 2014
2,204
Westmorland
Peter, you have a lawyers mentality that only sees the letter of the law, not its spirit.
No. A lawyer's mind has to see both. Statute might set out the letter of the law, but case law and precedent puts the 'flesh on the bones' and clarifies how the letter of the law is to be interpreted.

In our ongoing argument I have clearly shown how the spirit of the law in Britain is being misused to silence people who are upsetting the status quo and exposing uncomfortable truths.
No you haven't. What you have done is to ignore what Robinson was actually locked up for (repeatedly being in contempt of court) and instead sought to create (or, at least, promote) an entirely different narrative in which Robinson is hunted down by the Thought Police acting as part of some ill-defined and totally un-evidenced conspiracy to silence dissent.

If we accept your narrative, your position is entirely right - there has been a shocking infringement of freedom of speech. But as your narrative is a carefully constructed alt-right persecution fantasy which ignores or misunderstands the way the system works in order to cause shock and outrage, your conclusions fall away. You've built a castle on sand.

I also don't see where you have identified any "uncomfortable truths".

You are fine with this though because for all your protest to the contrary, you are not a believer in free speech.
I'm not a believer in free action, but I m a believer in free speech, That much, I hope, is patently obvious to anyone who is reading our exchange without having come to the debate with a predetermined agenda.

You have been invited to show how Robinson's treatment is standard for his 'offence'. Instead of other examples to prove your point you taunt myself and Tomar to protest in the same way. Obviously then, there are no examples to show that Robinson's treatment is normal procedure, that he is not being singled out.
And I dealt with your point. I made it quite clear that contempt and breach of the peace cases are rarely reported as they are not usually newsworthy. Breach of the peace is about the most minor thing anyone can be picked up for. I explained to you that what you need to do is spend time at a British court room, seeing how this stuff really works. I spent years and years not only seeing this stuff, but doing it day in and day out. Not just reading about it on the internet. Doing it personally. You haven't. I understand our criminal justice system. You don't.

I was, of course, being tongue in cheek when I suggested how you and Tomar might put your theories to the test. But talk is cheap and I believe that although you would never admit it - because to do so would kill your narrative dead and you know it - you know fine well that if you did accept my challenge, you'd end up in a whole world of bother.
 
Jan 2014
2,204
Westmorland
If they have been jailed because they protested non violently they may not be right, but the system that jailed them is definitely wrong

And its funny how some keep ignoring the fact that the appeal court ruled in his favor
No. What is funny is that despite the Court of Appeal finding in Robinson's favour and releasing him, we are still being asked to accept that there is a massive conspiracy to fit him up and silence him.

This case actually shows a justice system working properly and no amount of attempted reinvention by the far right changes that.

Good old Tommy gets picked up for contempt of the Court first time round. The sentencing judge makes it clear that although prison is the usual penalty for contempt (because it is seen as an attack on the rule of law which undermines the very fabric of our democratic society), he isn't going to lock Tommy up, because he fears making a martyr of him. So, Tommy gets lenient treatment and walks free.

But Tommy presumably wants to be a martyr, so he goes and does it again. Although, on this second occasion, the Judge seems to have been over zealous, the Court of Appeal overrules the Judge and Tommy walks free again, at least until the proceedings are re-run.

If "the government" are trying to silence good old Tommy by using the Police and the courts (which, as I have pointed out, they can't do anyway even if they wanted to), they're making a very bad job of it, aren't they?
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
12,538
This case actually shows a justice system working properly and no amount of attempted reinvention by the far right changes that.
Denial is a wonderful thing

In their ruling, the judges were scathing about the way the Leeds case was handled, pointing out that Robinson was jailed within five hours of the alleged offense being committed.

The failure to follow correct procedure represented "much more than a technical failure," the judges said.


That's really NOT a justice system working properly
 
Jan 2014
2,204
Westmorland
Denial is a wonderful thing

In their ruling, the judges were scathing about the way the Leeds case was handled, pointing out that Robinson was jailed within five hours of the alleged offense being committed.

The failure to follow correct procedure represented "much more than a technical failure," the judges said.


That's really NOT a justice system working properly
I'm not denying anything. The judge in Leeds was felt to have got it wrong and the Court of Appeal put it right. That's the sign of a working system.

No system works 100% of the time. Judges are human and it would be totally unrealistic to think they never got it wrong. This is why we have appeal courts - to rectify errors when they emerge. Robinson is being treated entirely fairly.

Interesting, Robinson's lawyers issued a statement after the hearing in which they praised the British legal system and stated that the Court of Appeal judgment showed how well things worked. That could only have been done that on good old Tommy's express instructions (or, at least, with his express approval). As such, it appears that your hero doesn't share your views about the system. If he doesn't think the system is out to get him, why would you?
 
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Nov 2008
1,166
England
I have read that Tommy Robinson`s next court appearance is due to be held on the 27th September. Left wing protesters intend to be there, an unholy mixture of Trotskyists and Marxists no doubt, and I suppose large numbers of Robinson`s supporters. It could be interesting; and it could be bloody. In between will be the long suffering British bobbies, who will be damned if they do and damned if they don`t.
 

tomar

Ad Honoris
Jan 2011
12,538
Interesting, Robinson's lawyers issued a statement after the hearing in which they praised the British legal system and stated that the Court of Appeal judgment showed how well things worked. That could only have been done that on good old Tommy's express instructions (or, at least, with his express approval). As such, it appears that your hero doesn't share your views about the system. If he doesn't think the system is out to get him, why would you?
Your posts are both rather naive and unduly agressive...

First Tommy Robinson is not "my hero".... He does seem however to be some sort of nightmare of yours... These constant hints (when they're not outright accusations) that those who disagree with you must be far right, nazis, conspiracy theorists etc are not only tiresome they are the reason why people are actually fed up and eventually prefer the likes of Mr Robinson to those extremists who keep on playing the over used "nazi racist etc.." card.....

Second of course most people praise their justice system WHEN it rules in their favor and whine about its unfairness when it does not.... Nothing unusual or suprising about that

Third please do a minimum of research before making statements.... ..... it would take you just a few seconds for example to find this

'I'm not a victim, I'm a target': Ex-EDL leader Tommy Robinson breaks silence to say he suffered ‘mental torture' in prison after 13-month jail term is quashed



Tommy Robinson claims prison was 'mental torture' after release | Daily Mail Online
 
Jan 2014
2,204
Westmorland
Your posts are both rather naive and unduly agressive...
They are neither. I admit to (and apologise for) a level of frustration which might creep into my posts, but I am hardy alone in occasionally allowing that to happen.

I do not accept accusations of naivety. The fact of the matter is that I understand the British legal system and you don't. This isn't meant to sound confrontational or patronising. It's just true. I worked in that system for many years. You didn't. So, when I see people talking nonsense about how the system works and - worse still - attempting to use that nonsense as a solid base on which to build tottering conspiracy theories - I feel compelled to set the record straight. The naivety in this debate clearly comes from those posters who choose to believe what they read on the internet.

He does seem however to be some sort of nightmare of yours...
Not at all. I think he is a nasty piece of work who successfully manipulates those who are less intelligent than him in pursuit of his unpleasant ideology, but despite the coverage he gets both here and abroad, he is at best a minor figure in British life. However, it's important to speak up against racism and bigotry as the failure to do so is something of an ongoing problem for liberals.

These constant hints (when they're not outright accusations) that those who disagree with you must be far right, nazis, conspiracy theorists etc
That is not fair. I have been very careful not to make any accusations of racism or of political affiliation against any other poster. To the contrary, I have made it quite clear that I am not accusing you, Belgarion or anyone else of being far right racists. You might be, but I don't know you and it isn't for me to pass comment. I do think, however, that you are a conspiracy theorist, at least on this point. The classic features of conspiracy theory (no credible evidence to back up the theory, a visceral distrust of the system and a complete misunderstanding of how the system actually works) are all evident in your posts.

why people are actually fed up and eventually prefer the likes of Mr Robinson to those extremists who keep on playing the over used "nazi racist etc.." card.....
No. Most people in Britain have very little time for Robinson and his ilk. Far right parties never do well at the ballot box. The BNP had very limited success some years ago, but it was transient and probably little more than a protest vote. Don't get me wrong. There are real issues about dispossession and marginalisation that we need to address in Britain and to write off everyone who supports the far right as a racist is to miss the point. But just because not everyone who supports the far right is a racist bigot doesn't mean that racist bigots don't support the far right.

Third please do a minimum of research before making statements....
To use a Biblical motif, you might like to remove the plank from your own eye before removing the speck from mine. Follow your own advice, especially when commenting on the British criminal justice system.
 
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Jan 2014
2,204
Westmorland
I have read that Tommy Robinson`s next court appearance is due to be held on the 27th September. Left wing protesters intend to be there, an unholy mixture of Trotskyists and Marxists no doubt, and I suppose large numbers of Robinson`s supporters. It could be interesting; and it could be bloody. In between will be the long suffering British bobbies, who will be damned if they do and damned if they don`t.

Alas, you are probably right. Two groups of extremists who are only interested in shrieking abuse at each other will not make for a happy day. As you say, the poor old coppers will get it in the neck either way. They will be cast as the stooges of the fascist police state if they lay hands on any of the Trot thugs and as the stooges of the politically correct liberal elite if they lay hands on any of Tommy's thugs. The fact that the system cannot be both a rightist conspiracy out to get the Trots and a leftist conspiracy out to silence Robinson will not occur to anyone in their self-righteous rage.


Is it just possible that it's neither?