Is Belgium Frankish or Belgic?... Or dutch?

Oct 2017
186
United States
#1
Curiosity and other things....

Basically, where does a modern Belgian identity fall, is it where the Franks temporarily resided for a period during the dark and middle ages, or is it where the pre-Roman Belgae/Belgic populations were until being pushed out and/or intermarrying with/losing identity to Frankish populations...

Perhaps it is both, is this reflected in the difference between north and south? Between Wallony and the Flemish regions?

But if the Flemish are dutch, why not unity with the Netherlands?

So how does one understand Belgium as related to historical periods and trends, that is to say, modern Belgium compared to those earlier historical periods and trends.

Additionally, what do people in Belgium consider as a national staple or identifiable cultural icon? Is Tintin in that category or is that just a very bad representation...

I guess that's just a starting point, maybe it can't be answered simply...
 

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,533
Europix
#3
Curiosity and other things....

Basically, where does a modern Belgian identity fall, is it where the Franks temporarily resided for a period during the dark and middle ages, or is it where the pre-Roman Belgae/Belgic populations were until being pushed out and/or intermarrying with/losing identity to Frankish populations...

Perhaps it is both, is this reflected in the difference between north and south? Between Wallony and the Flemish regions?

But if the Flemish are dutch, why not unity with the Netherlands?

So how does one understand Belgium as related to historical periods and trends, that is to say, modern Belgium compared to those earlier historical periods and trends.

Additionally, what do people in Belgium consider as a national staple or identifiable cultural icon? Is Tintin in that category or is that just a very bad representation...

I guess that's just a starting point, maybe it can't be answered simply...
If You leave behind the idea of nation-state, You can start understanding Belgium and Belgians.

Belgian isn't a language, Belgian isn't an ethnicity. Belgian is just a nation, as Swiss is a nation. You can be a Flemish Belgian, You can be a German Belgian, You can be even an Arab Belgian.

It's why Flemish aren't Dutch (although they speak the same language (well, almost: the Dutch speak some sort of a so-called Dutch :D), why Wallons aren't French.

It's also why the "rattachement" movements are insignificant in all three communities (cause there are Germans too). The most radical nationalist movements militate for independence, not for (re-) union. For example.
 

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,533
Europix
#4
Good introduction.

A bit outdated on a couple of small things, here and there.

In fact, the family in Brussels can depend not on 4 different Governments, but on seven. Well seven meaning six in Belgium, as two of them fusioned, but managing the two … OK, I'll stop, better to not frighten people from the first page the thread ;)
 
Mar 2016
783
Antalya
#5
If You leave behind the idea of nation-state, You can start understanding Belgium and Belgians.

Belgian isn't a language, Belgian isn't an ethnicity. Belgian is just a nation, as Swiss is a nation. You can be a Flemish Belgian, You can be a German Belgian, You can be even an Arab Belgian.

It's why Flemish aren't Dutch (although they speak the same language (well, almost: the Dutch speak some sort of a so-called Dutch :D), why Wallons aren't French.

It's also why the "rattachement" movements are insignificant in all three communities (cause there are Germans too). The most radical nationalist movements militate for independence, not for (re-) union. For example.
Isn't language a requirement for being a "nation"?


Do Belgians call themselves Belgian, or Dutch/German/French etc? Or something entirely else?
 
Dec 2017
297
Regnum Teutonicum
#6
@turing:
Essentially there are three types of nations. Cultural nations and state nations require language as one of their defining characteristics. On the other hand will nations don't need it. Not sure I translated those into english corrrectly, though.

As far as I can tell belgians call themselves either belgian and/or wallonian/flemish/german-speaking. Correct me if I am wrong.

@deaf turner:
I only get six - Belgium, Wallonia 2x, Flanders 2x (fused) and Brussels. Please don't let me die without knowing.
 

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,533
Europix
#7

As far as I can tell belgians call themselves either belgian and/or wallonian/flemish/german-speaking. Correct me if I am wrong. …
Depends to whom You're talking to.

Nationalists will consider themselves Flemish/Wallon/German.

But a lot of people consider themselves Belgian and Flemish, and Brusseleer, Belgian and Turkish, aso.

I know it seems odd, but identity is always multiple. You are German, You are a male, You are an Agnostic, You are a Professor, You are a Bavarian. All those are identities, that define You, none excludes the other, together make Your entire identity.

In the case of Belgians, You simply add a linguistic identity to all those other identities.


Maybe if You think American and Texan, American and Black, American and Latino might help You. They're not excluding one another.

As said, nation usually means community of language, but it isn't absolutely necessary. The community of language of a nation is a very new thing (couple of centuries).

@deaf turner:
I only get six - Belgium, Wallonia 2x, Flanders 2x (fused) and Brussels. Please don't let me die without knowing.
:evil: :evil: :evil:

Zum Teufel ! Wie koenen Sie die Deutche Regierung vergessen ???

(dammit, how can You forget the German government ??)
 

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