Is China really less free than the West?

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Menshevik

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Dec 2012
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What about the situation outside of the US? The USA operates an estimated 100 "black sites", secret prisons, around the world. Total number of captives in these locations is impossible to estimate. They're held without due process, and often not even the family knows where these people are. America does in fact make people disappear. It just doesn't usually do it in America. Some people think they're just terrorists being held so it doesn't matter how they're treated, but there are plenty of examples of innocent people that have been and probably continue to be kept in such places, including ironically, innocent Chinese Uighurs in Guantanamo Bay...!

I also don't think that this comparison between freedom in America vs freedom in China, can be made without acknowledging the situation in areas that are or have been under American military control, or even those that are occupied by American proxies . The Chinese don't have such a lethal track record with regard to their international affairs, the way US has in the quest to spread their brand of democracy. A lot of people died including journalists simply doing their job, and a lot of people disappeared. A lot of Americans would like to wash their hands of what happened and pretend they didn't have anything to do with it, but the people in Iraq and Afghanistan and even Pakistan and Yemen don't have such a short memory.

 
Jul 2019
141
Ghana
You compared Snowden to three Soviet spies,

and when I bring up that the USA has also detained innocent Uighurs in a network of secret prisons that hold an untold number of other people without due process as well, you share a link to a wikipedia site on "red herring". Seems like projection to me.
 

Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
9,355
here
You compared Snowden to three Soviet spies,
I did.



and when I bring up that the USA has also detained innocent Uighurs in a network of secret prisons that hold an untold number of other people without due process as well, you share a link to a wikipedia site on "red herring". Seems like projection to me.
Yeah you also said:
What about the situation outside of the US? The USA operates an estimated 100 "black sites", secret prisons, around the world. Total number of captives in these locations is impossible to estimate. They're held without due process, and often not even the family knows where these people are. America does in fact make people disappear. It just doesn't usually do it in America. Some people think they're just terrorists being held so it doesn't matter how they're treated, but there are plenty of examples of innocent people that have been and probably continue to be kept in such places, including ironically, innocent Chinese Uighurs in Guantanamo Bay...!

I also don't think that this comparison between freedom in America vs freedom in China, can be made without acknowledging the situation in areas that are or have been under American military control, or even those that are occupied by American proxies . The Chinese don't have such a lethal track record with regard to their international affairs, the way US has in the quest to spread their brand of democracy. A lot of people died including journalists simply doing their job, and a lot of people disappeared. A lot of Americans would like to wash their hands of what happened and pretend they didn't have anything to do with it, but the people in Iraq and Afghanistan and even Pakistan and Yemen don't have such a short memory.
A lot of emotive language here and agenda driven drivel that is an attempt to divert attention away from the topic at hand.
 
Jul 2019
141
Ghana
On the second page of this thread I clarified that the USA incarcerates people at more than three and a half times the rate that China does, even if we're being generous to America by using the highest numbers reported for China. But there was no response or acknowledgement of this, even though this is probably the most relevant statistic that has been shared here with regard to OP's question.

The incarceration of innocent people in black sites and through extraordinary rendition, by the Americans, is well documented. Do you honestly believe that all these people being held without charge, and often released without charge after years of torture, are in fact guilty of some (terrorism related) crime. Are you also questioning that the Americans tried to spread their brand of democracy to Afghanistan and Iraq, and that these wars were some of the bloodiest conflicts of the decade?

How is labeling this "emotive language" even an argument? And how is this diverting attention away from the topic at hand? I consider these points quite relevant to consider. The USA exports its human rights abuses, China commits them at home. I don't think either camp should bragging about some kind of moral superiority. I think large parts of Europe are definitely more free, but between the USA and China, it's really a matter of perspective.

Also, if you accuse me of pushing an agenda, feel free to come out and explain exactly which agenda you think I'm pushing.
For the record, to the other readers, no I'm not pushing an agenda. I just prefer a balanced discussion. China commits undeniable human rights abuses which are deplorable. So does the West, especially the USA. Both are committed to making each other look as bad as possible. They're probably both worse than we think.
 
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Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
9,355
here
On the second page of this thread I clarified that the USA incarcerates people at more than three and a half times the rate that China does, even if we're being generous to America by using the highest numbers reported for China. But there was no response or acknowledgement of this, even though this is probably the most relevant statistic that has been shared here with regard to OP's question.

The incarceration of innocent people in black sites and through extraordinary rendition, by the Americans, is well documented. Do you honestly believe that all these people being held without charge, and often released without charge after years of torture, are in fact guilty of some (terrorism related) crime. Are you also questioning that the Americans tried to spread their brand of democracy to Afghanistan and Iraq, and that these wars were some of the bloodiest conflicts of the decade?

How is labeling this "emotive language" even an argument? And how is this diverting attention away from the topic at hand? I consider these points quite relevant to consider. The USA exports its human rights abuses, China commits them at home. I don't think either camp should bragging about some kind of moral superiority. I think Europe is definitely more free, but between the USA and China, it's really a matter of perspective.
Goodness. You can't even be consistent in your arguments.

You start off your paragraph here by lamenting the incarceration rate in the US, that's something that would be an internal matter of human rights abuse. You end your paragraph by saying that the US exports its humans rights abuses.
 
Jul 2019
141
Ghana
Are those things mutually exclusive now?

America's human rights abuses abroad are far more egregious, but domestically, their incarceration rate speaks volumes as well. There is no inconsistency here.
 

Menshevik

Ad Honorem
Dec 2012
9,355
here
Are those things mutually exclusive now?

America's human rights abuses abroad are far more egregious, but domestically, their incarceration rate speaks volumes as well. There is no inconsistency here.

I think large parts of Europe are definitely more free, but between the USA and China, it's really a matter of perspective.
There's the rub. It isn't a matter of perspective, it's apples and oranges. You're either ignorant of the reality of the differing situations in the two countries or you're arguing in bad faith. I'm leaning towards the latter, I think you're being disingenuous. Either way, I don't see further communication between us will be of any benefit. Have a nice day.
 
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