Is death more welcome than perpetual torture?

Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,925
Romania
#91
That is your belief, which holds you back from committing suicide, which according to this logic, results in your eternal damnation/ suffering. Okay! Thanks for sharing your view!
You are welcome! Your words above re: belief etc. make me end my participation in this thread with a quote from St. Maximus the Confessor's Four Hundred Texts on Love, I.3, on faith, hope and love (1 Cor. 13):

If you have faith in the Lord you will fear punishment, and this fear will lead you to control the passions. Once you control the passions you will accept affliction patiently, and through such acceptance you will acquire hope in God. Hope in God separates the intellect from every worldly attachment, and when the intellect is detached in this way it will acquire love for God.
 
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#92
I never did what you falsely impute to me, I just explained you that "objectively" speaking no one can have the right to do something wrong, and we believe that murder is wrong per se because God Almighty forbids it. In what you are concerned, you just assert that people have the right to dispose of their life how they wish, without bringing any kind of justification for your claim. Do I have to accept that people have this right because you claim so, or what?!
"I just explained you that "objectively" speaking no one can have the right to do something wrong" - It seems to me that this sentence presupposes the existence of objective morality and a clear definition of 'right' and 'wrong'. If all you're saying is that you don't support suicide because of your religion, fine, but (perhaps I'm mistaken) it seems that you're asserting more than this.

Edit: I only just noticed that you do not intend to continue participating in this thread, so no worries if you don't feel like replying.
 
Likes: Olleus
Mar 2018
729
UK
#93
I never did what you falsely impute to me, I just explained you that "objectively" speaking no one can have the right to do something wrong, and we believe that murder is wrong per se because God Almighty forbids it. In what you are concerned, you just assert that people have the right to dispose of their life how they wish, without bringing any kind of justification for your claim. Do I have to accept that people have this right because you claim so, or what?!
I think there's some basic comprehension problem here. I'll try and make it as simple as I can.

How can you speak about the "objective" right (or lack therefore) to do something wrong, without first establishing that there are such things as universal rights and wrongs? You believe that there are such things. Good for you. By all means, continue to believe that suicide is wrong. You are entitled to your own subjective view. I have a problem with you telling other people that suicide is objectively wrong, because that is false. By all means, you can try and convince people that your subjective view is a good/useful one to have, but don't pretend it's objective.

I never made the claims you stated. I'm just trying to explain to you that your position is subjective (i.e., dependent on your choice of beliefs) rather than objective. Previously I had stated my *opinion* that a guiding principle for whether we should let people make their decisions is if they are of capable of substantive long term cognitive processes grounded in reality. I never claimed that was an objective truth.
 
Jan 2010
4,420
Atlanta, Georgia USA
#95
Only if one believes there is someone we should ask forgiveness to.

Are there any catholics who think suicide is not a sin?
Catholics believe that it is a mortal sin to kill another human being without a valid excuse. That goes for murder, suicide, the death penalty, and abortion. The only valid excuse is to prevent more death. E.g you shoot a suicide bomber who is about to detonate in the market
 
Oct 2018
1,209
Adelaide south Australia
#96
I don't believe in eternal afterlife for one reason, it's too simple to be true. We know that billions of years have passed by, billions yet to come. To think the ultimate fate of our soul, it's to-be experience for these billions of years is decided merely by a course of some decades is absurd.

It's like imprisoning someone lifelong for a petty theft.

Indeed.

The notion of an eternal hell is a Christian invention, it does not appear in the Torah. The article quoted below is worth a glance. There's s a LOT of information on line:

"In the Old Testament, there’s only one word which indicated anything close to Hell, and that is (in transliteration) sheol. It appears originally to have been the Hebrews’ version of the Sumerian and Babylonian Irkalla, or Netherworld, also----"



"The notion of Hell in early Christianity likely followed the lines of Greco-Roman thought; a very, very few righteous and favored souls came to a pleasant afterlife, similar to the Elysian fields, while the rest, the vast majority, lingered in a non-descript, shadowy, relatively unpleasant afterlife."


Early Christian History / The Theology of Hell


I've always had a problem with the notion of an infinitely compassionate god sentencing one to an eternity of suffering. That concept leads directly to the problems of suffering and evil. Hindus and Buddhists have a more-or-less rational explanation. Christians do not..

I too am an Atheist. I disbelieve due to the lack of proof.

Below a quote from Epicurus:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
 
Oct 2013
6,268
Planet Nine, Oregon
#97
Interesting article. It seems he has lost his sense of purpose in life. It has become mechanical - nothing to do, no emotions, no company, and perhaps dependency on others for some daily chores.

It is not torture going by dictionary meaning of that word. It is loss of purpose or boredom.
It's not torture, but it sheds light on "eternal life' and how that would not work, also, anything can be torture eventually.. If that is enough for him, physical torture without hope of relief for others is enough --if they feel it is enough.
 

VHS

Ad Honorem
Dec 2015
4,427
Florania
#98
Indeed.

The notion of an eternal hell is a Christian invention, it does not appear in the Torah. The article quoted below is worth a glance. There's s a LOT of information on line:

"In the Old Testament, there’s only one word which indicated anything close to Hell, and that is (in transliteration) sheol. It appears originally to have been the Hebrews’ version of the Sumerian and Babylonian Irkalla, or Netherworld, also----"



"The notion of Hell in early Christianity likely followed the lines of Greco-Roman thought; a very, very few righteous and favored souls came to a pleasant afterlife, similar to the Elysian fields, while the rest, the vast majority, lingered in a non-descript, shadowy, relatively unpleasant afterlife."


Early Christian History / The Theology of Hell


I've always had a problem with the notion of an infinitely compassionate god sentencing one to an eternity of suffering. That concept leads directly to the problems of suffering and evil. Hindus and Buddhists have a more-or-less rational explanation. Christians do not..

I too am an Atheist. I disbelieve due to the lack of proof.

Below a quote from Epicurus:

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
Paul Henri Thiery's Good Senses is a rather comprehensive work on Atheist thoughts.
 

Ficino

Ad Honorem
Apr 2012
6,925
Romania
This is certainly my last post in this thread: some people are so low in understanding as to confuse the incapacity of the agent with the incapacity of the receiver, and to imagine that what can receive nothing at all is better than what can receive less (such that good mixed with evil would be worse than no good at all!!!). I cross myself with astonishment seeing how confident in themselves and proudly boisterous can be people who are thoroughly ignorant in what concerns our beliefs, it won't hurt them if they go to learn something before fancying themselves so wise.
 
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