Is feminism ruining the West?

Ichon

Ad Honorem
Mar 2013
3,426
@VHS
The Great Leap forward and the Cultural Revolution especially, were catastrophic. Mao demonstrated during his time in power that he could not care less about his people. As head of government it was his responsibility to protect, and serve the Chinese people ,helping them achieve their potential.He did none of those things except where it was in Mao's interest. He was criminal of the same depth of guilt as the psychopathic Stalin.
I would not put Mao on the same path as Stalin. For Stalin it was always about absolute power and only secondarily about advancing the capabilities of the greater Soviet bloc (which enhanced his own power). Mao came to power quite differently than Stalin and most of his policies had specific intentions separate from enhancing Map's own power though Mao did decide to create a cult of personality when challenged from within the CCP for leadership and his deep suspicions of intellectuals made many of his policies quite obviously formed from ignorance and doomed to fail. At the same time, Mao made more daring and far-reaching changes for Chinese society than any single person since the first Emperors.

Mao was definitely arrogant and caused millions of death by his policies but unlike Stalin who protected his own power first and acted more like a mafia boss than anything else, Mao acted to guarantee the rights of the proletariat with himself as guarantor of that classes rights. Ironically Mao found himself creating a bureaucracy very similar to that which he opposed during the revolution and recreated a new superior class just two generations after the CCP came to power which is shedding most of the original CCP goals in deed if not yet in word.
 
Oct 2018
671
Adelaide south Australia
Gee, how on earth did we mange to get to here from a fatuous question about feminism.


I can't argue in much depth about Mao; my formal studies on China a were more to do with Chinese culture than politics specifically ,and in times before the revolution..

I visited mainland China in 1984 and 1985. Absolutely loved it. We Were free to go anywhere we wanted to go. This sounded great until I realised I speak no Mandarin and few Chinese speak English. I WAS s approached in several hotel lobbies by polite a young man who wanted to practice his English. I thought that was a perfect time to heed my mother's advice; NEVER criticise a country to a local.I may have laid it on bit thick. Hopefully they thought I was just a gullible gweilo. Still loved the country though ,it's arse deep in beauty and old things. The people were lovely.

Regardless of what I knew intellectually, I was deeply shocked and appalled at the Tiananmen Square massacre . .I mean, the government actually used tanks and troops shooting its own people, undertaking a peaceful protest.

Have never wanted to go back to China after that. Have not even been back to Hong Kong, my favourite city for 20 years.


I found the Time article linked below, very interesting.

6 Things You Should Know About the Tiananmen Square Massacre
 

Ichon

Ad Honorem
Mar 2013
3,426
Regardless of what I knew intellectually, I was deeply shocked and appalled at the Tiananmen Square massacre . .I mean, the government actually used tanks and troops shooting its own people, undertaking a peaceful protest.

Have never wanted to go back to China after that. Have not even been back to Hong Kong, my favourite city for 20 years.

6 Things You Should Know About the Tiananmen Square Massacre
Tiananmen Square was certainly a mistake but the U.S. had the Kent State shootings along with Waco assault and several other massacres perpetrated such as Blair Mountain perpetrated by the U.S. government in earlier times. Usually a combination of impatience, greed, and losing face leads to such mistakes where the bureaucracy is blamed and culpability is shifted around to protect the actual decision makers.

China of 2018 is WAY different than China of 1989 and it is dangerous to make the comparison. Personally, I claim no familiarity with modern China as I lived in Japan for several years and almost all I know about China is from students going to school in Japan, Hong Kong residents leaving for other places, and a few Chinese-American families that left China before 1960 and some friends who have travelled there for business in the past few years.

Mao radically changed the place of women in Chinese society. Sure it is not perfect but in the space of a couple decades women in China obtained many of the same basic rights it took Western feminists nearly a century to obtain.
 
Last edited:
Oct 2018
671
Adelaide south Australia
Making a comparison with the US is a logical fallacy ,well, two actually

Straw man; and AND 'you too', .

Straw man is when a person tries to argue something not in discussion

'You too' is saying something like, "well yes, I DID kill that guy , but him over there, that man raped and killed half a dozen women. --It's irrelevant in judging the single murder.;


You keep using the term 'mistake' to describe some of the most egregious acts by the PRC dictatorship.

The Tiananmen Square massacre was not 'a mistake'. the brutality was intentional.,Nobody knows how many people were killed: I've seen estimates ranging from500 to 3000.
As far as I'm aware, information of that remains suppressed by the PRC government and the internet remains closely monitored and controlled.

,I can't speak with expert knowledge on China today. I'm aware of the apparent economic freedoms,.

However I've seen no evidence that citizens of the PRC have all the freedoms taken for granted in democracies
 

Larrey

Ad Honorem
Sep 2011
4,695
I can't speak with expert knowledge on China today. I'm aware of the apparent economic freedoms
Even those are relative. The new Chinese relative affluence is very real, including all the options that stem just from not being actually poor for a society.

But China is still struggling with control-issues. Not that the CCP doesn't have control, but that its control is such that China doesn't offer proper legal protection for private property, and also not the complete set of instruments that the public can invest in (and spread risks around).

Which leads to some weird disproportionate Chinese investment patterns, AND a growing tendency for member of the middle-class Chinese general public to get around the controls against it in place, and invest in stuff outside China. Something is going to have to give also in the economic opportunities side of the Chinese experience, but so far it doesn't look like the thing that is going to have to go is CCP control. Less so than in a long time with Xi Jinping assuming new levels of control.
 

holoow

Ad Honorem
Jun 2012
3,652
Vilnius, Lithuania
Mary Wollstonecraft was often considered the "first feminist".
While some progresses were made during the Republic of China, Mao Zedong and the Communist Party of China were known to push women's rights way ahead of any historical period in China.
Is it legitimate to consider Mao a great feminist?
Now Chinese men bear consequences of such policy :)

 

Ichon

Ad Honorem
Mar 2013
3,426
'You too' is saying something like, "well yes, I DID kill that guy , but him over there, that man raped and killed half a dozen women. --It's irrelevant in judging the single murder.;

The Tiananmen Square massacre was not 'a mistake'. the brutality was intentional.,Nobody knows how many people were killed: I've seen estimates ranging from500 to 3000.
As far as I'm aware, information of that remains suppressed by the PRC government and the internet remains closely monitored and controlled.

However I've seen no evidence that citizens of the PRC have all the freedoms taken for granted in democracies
Why was Tiananmen Square even brought up in the first place? If you have no history of China then Tiananmen judged by Western standards is bad but even then only if you choose to overlook Western mistakes in a similar context. However, given the people making leadership decisions in China at the time of Tiananmen had lived through the Cultural Revolution student protests were viewed as bloody dangerous because only a couple decades prior the resulting anarchy killed tens of thousands. The current CCP recognizes Tiananmen was a mistake though I believe it is for the wrong reasons and thus likely to have something similar repeated but you being shocked is more a function of your own ignorance than justified condemnation.

Not all societies can work the same way or even should. Different conditions predicate different solutions. China has its share of problems and I think the current leadership is going to make things worse but in reality, I think CCP leaders are aware economic problems are coming and they approve Xi approach because the view is survival of the CCP and order above anarchy are the most importasnt values. I think they are mostly correct about order over anarchy but survival of CCP and survival of China are about to become separate things in average China citizen minds DUE to the claims CCP has made to guarantee stability and the heavy controls... when stability STILL does not result they will lose legitimacy.

BTW- there is a Chinese version of feminism that would be interesting to discuss unless it was addressed earlier? I have not gone back and read entire thread.
 
Oct 2018
671
Adelaide south Australia
--even then only if you choose to overlook Western mistakes in a similar context. -----

THAT is a classic case of a 'you too' fallacy. I thought I'd explained it clearly. Obviously not.

The cases you mentioned are not connected,. Each situation must be judged on its own merits.

China's behaviour is not excused by different situations or cultural differences. As far as I'm concerned, common standards of international law apply. China is not a special case, in which the totalitarian government has the moral right to treat its people any way it chooses.

The Tiananmen massacre was a vicious and extreme reaction to what had been a peaceful demonstration.Even had it been violent, exactly to what in the form of weapons would students have access.? How could their actions possibly justify the use of tanks?

I make it my practice to avoid arguments with apologists of all kinds. I also find your attempts to excuse the PRC dictatorship of crimes against its people, repugnant. I have nothing further to say to you about this matter.

I have put you on ignore.
 

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