Is it possible for Germany to quickly knock out France during WWI only to subsequently lose WWI to a Russia-Britain-US alliance like in WWII?

Futurist

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May 2014
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If Germany would have somehow managed to quickly (or at least relatively quickly) knock out France during WWI, could it have been possible for Germany to subsequently lose WWI to a Russian-Britain-US alliance like in WWII? Basically, I was wondering if it was actually possible for the geopolitical and military situation in WWI to become similar to what it was in WWII in real life. In real life, in WWI, Germany eventually managed to knock out Russia with the help of Bolshevik subversives only to subsequently lose WWI in the West. However, I was wondering if the reverse would have been possible in WWI--with Germany knocking out France and subsequently failing to knock Russia out, followed by an Anglo-American liberation of France and a total defeat for Germany. For the record, you would get bonus points in this scenario if Italy would have joined the German side in WWI in this scenario (just like in WWII in real life) and if Britain and the US would have actually been able to liberate France during WWI in this scenario through an amphibious naval invasion (like D-Day and Operation Dragoon were during WWII in real life).

Anyway, is this actually doable and realistic? Any thoughts on this?
 
Apr 2018
338
Italy
If Italy would have joined Germany in 1914 the Battle of the Marne would have been a crushing defeat for French, since they had 300.000 on the Alps that wouldn't have partecipated in the battle. With Paris occupied the English would have retreat maintining a naval blocade to Germany and Italy. USA were against a direct intervent in Europe, so no intervent in 1914 and 1915. Than the German army would have crushed the Russian army.
 

Futurist

Ad Honoris
May 2014
23,428
SoCal
If Italy would have joined Germany in 1914 the Battle of the Marne would have been a crushing defeat for French, since they had 300.000 on the Alps that wouldn't have partecipated in the battle. With Paris occupied the English would have retreat maintining a naval blocade to Germany and Italy. USA were against a direct intervent in Europe, so no intervent in 1914 and 1915. Than the German army would have crushed the Russian army.
The Italians would likely only after the war if/after it already becomes clear that Germany is going to knock France out of the war, though. Italy would otherwise be disinclined to enter the war on the German side since the Anglo-French side has so much more territory to offer it (at Austria's expense, of course).
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,970
The Italians would likely only after the war if/after it already becomes clear that Germany is going to knock France out of the war, though. Italy would otherwise be disinclined to enter the war on the German side since the Anglo-French side has so much more territory to offer it (at Austria's expense, of course).
And How is that Different form ww2?

Italy declared war on June 10. The Germans had reached the Channel cost on may 20, the Dunkirk evacuation had finished on June 4, on June 10 Paris was declared and open city and would not be defended.
 

Futurist

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May 2014
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And How is that Different form ww2?

Italy declared war on June 10. The Germans had reached the Channel cost on may 20, the Dunkirk evacuation had finished on June 4, on June 10 Paris was declared and open city and would not be defended.
It isn't.
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,970
If Germany would have somehow managed to quickly (or at least relatively quickly) knock out France during WWI, could it have been possible for Germany to subsequently lose WWI to a Russian-Britain-US alliance like in WWII? Basically, I was wondering if it was actually possible for the geopolitical and military situation in WWI to become similar to what it was in WWII in real life. In real life, in WWI, Germany eventually managed to knock out Russia with the help of Bolshevik subversives only to subsequently lose WWI in the West. However, I was wondering if the reverse would have been possible in WWI--with Germany knocking out France and subsequently failing to knock Russia out, followed by an Anglo-American liberation of France and a total defeat for Germany. For the record, you would get bonus points in this scenario if Italy would have joined the German side in WWI in this scenario (just like in WWII in real life) and if Britain and the US would have actually been able to liberate France during WWI in this scenario through an amphibious naval invasion (like D-Day and Operation Dragoon were during WWII in real life).

Anyway, is this actually doable and realistic? Any thoughts on this?
The Basic problem with mirroring ww2 is that Tzarist Russia was less resinelent compared to Stalinist Russia.
 
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Lee-Sensei

Ad Honorem
Aug 2012
2,151
i don’t think so. The Soviet Union was a lot stronger in WW2 relative to the other major powers than Tsarist Russia was.
 
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stevev

Ad Honorem
Apr 2017
3,729
Las Vegas, NV USA
The German plan in WWI was to defeat France in six weeks and move immediately against Russia with the help of Austria Hungary. They would probably settle for something like what they got in January 1918. Britain would likely have to recognize the German peace and accept a no win, no lose (as far as Britain is concerned ) as long the Germans got out of Belgium and made peace with France in a way that preserved French sovereignty. They were still in a position to keep the blockade on the German coast otherwise. The US and Italy would not be directly involved in this scenario.

If the US was involved early and played a much larger role in WWI, than it might look more like WWII.
 
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Chlodio

Forum Staff
Aug 2016
4,978
Dispargum
Even with Italy neutral, France almost lost the Battle of the Marne. If Italy stayed neutral in 1914, I don't know if Italy would join the Entente after France was knocked out. If Romania could join the Entente then anything can happen. Not all of the German forces on the Western Front could be shifted east. Some would have to occupy France. I agree, without France the remaining Entente powers are at a severe disadvantage.

Just to play devil's advocate,
1. Italy stays neutral, Germany wins the Battle of the Marne, and France surrenders
2. BEF evacuates back to Britain and is available for the Dardenelles Operation without being distracted by the Battle of Loos. The BEF also does not suffer the casualties of 1st and 2nd Ypres. Maybe the Dardenelles Operation succeeds so Turkey surrenders, Bulgaria stays neutral, Serbia remains in the war, and Romania enters the war in 1915. British are able to send supplies to Russia.
3. Italy enters the war, Austria-Hungary still fighting in Serbia and now Romania, is weaker on the Italian Front.
4. Germany, eager to finish off Britain, is more aggressive about unrestricted submarine warfare, US enters the war in 1916

With a few lucky breaks, it's not quite so one sided against the Entente, but I agree, Germany has an easier road to victory than Britain does.
 
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Futurist

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May 2014
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The Basic problem with mirroring ww2 is that Tzarist Russia was less resinelent compared to Stalinist Russia.
Was there any way to fix this?

The German plan in WWI was to defeat France in six weeks and move immediately against Russia with the help of Austria Hungary. They would probably settle for something like what they got in January 1918.
March 1918?

Britain would likely have to recognize the German peace and accept a no win, no lose (as far as Britain is concerned ) as long the Germans got out of Belgium and made peace with France in a way that preserved French sovereignty. They were still in a position to keep the blockade on the German coast otherwise. The US and Italy would not be directly involved in this scenario.
Can Germany keep the rest of Lorraine or at least the iron ore-rich Briey-Longwy area?

If the US was involved early and played a much larger role in WWI than it might look more like WWII.
But the challenge is actually making this happen, no?