Is it safe to say that Marshal Ney was one of Napoleon's worst Marshal's, aside from Marshal Bernadotte?

Sep 2019
45
Canada
Recklessly charges without orders in Jena (1806), and gets himself surrounded, and troops are needed to be sent over to save him. Recklessly charges without orders and with no infantry/arty support into British infantry regiments in square formation behind a ridge in Waterloo (1815), throwing away thousands of Frances best cavalry. I know he was dignified and served in many battles, and may have pulled out some minor victories, but all and all I feel he was one of Napoleon's worst Marshals.

And Bernadotte...is quite obvious lol. It is a hard contest between Ney and him for the 'worst Marshal' position lol
 
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pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,469
Ney was a good divsion commander bt uniuited to largher command. Though Waterloo , Napoleon was in command. I don't see how Ney can be blamed. Napoloen was right there withcaval;ry just in front him going off, and the attack went for hours. Napoleon was repsonible. Ney might have started it, but certialy Napoleon let it happen.


Murat hands down by a huge margin. unsuited to command anything larger than a regiment, and only with a decent Major/
 
Sep 2019
45
Canada
Ney was a good divsion commander bt uniuited to largher command. Though Waterloo , Napoleon was in command. I don't see how Ney can be blamed. Napoloen was right there withcaval;ry just in front him going off, and the attack went for hours. Napoleon was repsonible. Ney might have started it, but certialy Napoleon let it happen.


Murat hands down by a huge margin. unsuited to command anything larger than a regiment, and only with a decent Major/
Ney threw away precious cav in several failed charges that would have never succeeded, going against basic military doctrine. The failure of the battle doesn't rest SOLELY on him, but he didn't help.
Also, I forget to mention that he went against Napoleons orders again, and kept ordering 1st corps to come to him in Quatre Bras (when he was more than fine without it), instead of going to Ligny as Napoleon had ordered. These indecisive orders from Ney and Napoleon, eventually led to 1st Corps going nowhere in time. If it had gone to Ligny as Napoleon ordered, Napoleon could have defeated the Prussians decisively, quite possibly knocking them out completely for the Battle of Waterloo.
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,469
Ney threw away precious cav in several failed charges that would have never succeeded, going against basic military doctrine. The failure of the battle doesn't rest SOLELY on him, but he didn't help.
Also, I forget to mention that he went against Napoleons orders again, and kept ordering 1st corps to come to him in Quatre Bras (when he was more than fine without it), instead of going to Ligny as Napoleon had ordered. These indecisive orders from Ney and Napoleon, eventually led to 1st Corps going nowhere in time. If it had gone to Ligny as Napoleon ordered, Napoleon could have defeated the Prussians decisively, quite possibly knocking them out completely for the Battle of Waterloo.
Napoleon allowed the cavalry to be thrown away repeated charges that happened rightin front of him t Ney had repeatedly shown being unsuited to command a coprs and mange large battles, but again Nepoleon let it happen. He has for all his career allowed Marshalls to ignore the chain of command and act irresponibilty. He appionted his favoruates and relatives rather than people who could do the job (Jerome really?) and failed to developed a decent staff system.
 
Sep 2019
45
Canada
Napoleon allowed the cavalry to be thrown away repeated charges that happened rightin front of him t Ney had repeatedly shown being unsuited to command a coprs and mange large battles, but again Nepoleon let it happen. He has for all his career allowed Marshalls to ignore the chain of command and act irresponibilty. He appionted his favoruates and relatives rather than people who could do the job (Jerome really?) and failed to developed a decent staff system.
I agree his nepotism for royal positions was tedious (but he didnt really sway to Nepotism when it came to Marshals like you are claiming, he used capable military commanders) but nothing at all supports your claim that he just "allowed" Marshal's to ignore him.
For one, there is nothing much you can do when your best form of communication is horseback messages, in terms of Marshals ignoring aspects of orders.
Plus, his system of marshals were incredibly well-manged, and that cannot be denied between the years of 1801 - 1814.
It was only when he came back from Elba, with so little good Marshals left, that he was essentially forced to work with what he had
 
Feb 2019
840
Serbia
Ney was an overpromoted division commander but was competent as a Marshal. He was alright in my opinion. At Waterloo Napoleon could've easily overruled him and stopped the cavalry charges. The blame for not destroying the Prussians rests on Napoleon for sending Grouchy too late, in the wrong direction and down a bad path.

The worst Marshal is Murat, no question. He was an interesting personality but a horrendous commander. By himself he never did anything good and under Napoleon he has only 2 semi-noteworthy actions: The pursuit after Jena and the breaking of the 2nd Ottoman line at Aboukir, though this was under the supervision of Napoleon and nothing impressive.
 
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Feb 2019
840
Serbia
but he didnt really sway to Nepotism when it came to Marshals like you are claiming, he used capable military commanders
He did, see Murat. If someone like Murat can be made a marshal immediately but St. Cyr is excluded until 1812 because he didn't endorse Napoleon becoming Consul there is more than merit at play. Bernadotte also qualifies, what he did around Auerstedt would've got him sacked in any normal army, though there is an argument to be made that, by not fighting, Bernadotte had a fresh corps to pursue the Prussians with.
 

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,469
this article goes over the micommunictaion with d'erlon and tehrte is quite some doubt about the actual orders.

The Key to Victory: General d’Erlon’s I Corps, 16 June 1815



__
"In order to be objective about d’Erlon’s actions between 1830 and 1930, it must be noted that Napoleon himself contributed to d’Erlon’s dilemma by not taking full advantage of I Corps’ unexpected arrival. It would have made d’Erlon’s decision much easier had Napoleon’s aide-de-camp given him a verbal order to attack Blucher’s right-flank:
“Napoleon, even in the opinion of Jomini, his admirer, is held to have committ​
ed a ‘manifest fault’ in neglecting to send a positive order to d’Erlon – who, ‘by the happy error of an aide-de-camp,’ had arrived so opportunely – to march at once upon Brye.”[39]
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Last edited:

pugsville

Ad Honorem
Oct 2010
9,469
I agree his nepotism for royal positions was tedious (but he didnt really sway to Nepotism when it came to Marshals like you are claiming, he used capable military commanders) but nothing at all supports your claim that he just "allowed" Marshal's to ignore him.
For one, there is nothing much you can do when your best form of communication is horseback messages, in terms of Marshals ignoring aspects of orders.
Plus, his system of marshals were incredibly well-manged, and that cannot be denied between the years of 1801 - 1814.
It was only when he came back from Elba, with so little good Marshals left, that he was essentially forced to work with what he had
It can be denied that the systemof Marhsals was well managed., and I do so.

Napoloen deliberately as a matter of policy never settled precedence and line of command issues, throughout his camp[aignstehre were squabbles with his marahslls of comamndof control of various things use of roads etc, And Napoloen allowed this situation because he wanted them dvided, in need of his authority to settle matters. But it was endepemic problem that saw poor co-oridntaion bteween them throughout the period,

Murat was appointed as a Marshal solely on the basis of his relations to Napoloen. He was not fit to command a regiment.
 
Sep 2019
45
Canada
He did, see Murat. If someone like Murat can be made a marshal immediately but St. Cyr is excluded until 1812 because he didn't endorse Napoleon becoming Consul there is more than merit at play. Bernadotte also qualifies, what he did around Auerstedt would've got him sacked in any normal army, though there is an argument to be made that, by not fighting, Bernadotte had a fresh corps to pursue the Prussians with.
Murat never royally screwed up like Ney lol.
Also it was CLEARLY established that Murat was an excellent cavalry commander lol, im extremely confused as to why there is Murat-hate lol, especially when comparing him to the bumbling old, PTSD Ney lol