Is it time to think international relations and security beyond NATO?

Rodger

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,171
US
It was my impression too, but I preferred to hear it said by an American ... ;)

Now, do we agree that the "social programs or defense" isn't the only option, but that it can be also the option "social programs and defense" ?
It's not an easy rail to straddle. Social Security, which is actually social insurance, but also serves as a social welfare program via the SSI program, is running out of money. There are difficult decisions to be made regarding health care for the poor or under employed. While the military remains well equipped, many veterans are not happy with their care and treatment in the areas of V.A. health care and pensions. At some point, the family is going to have to decide to replace the broken down, old car or go on that vacation that they have dreamt of for years.
 

deaf tuner

Ad Honoris
Oct 2013
14,615
Europix
It's not an easy rail to straddle. Social Security, which is actually social insurance, but also serves as a social welfare program via the SSI program, is running out of money. There are difficult decisions to be made regarding health care for the poor or under employed. While the military remains well equipped, many veterans are not happy with their care and treatment in the areas of V.A. health care and pensions. At some point, the family is going to have to decide to replace the broken down, old car or go on that vacation that they have dreamt of for years.
Nothing's easy, and trying to do things good or better is even harder.

I simply do not think there's a "must choose" between defense and social.

Personally I believe is one of those absurd sterotypes we're fed (or we're feeding ourselves) with.

You, in Your family will do anything for them having a better life and You will do anything to protect them. But You will not spend everything for protecting them while cutting their schooling, renouncing healing them, feeding them with waste, would You?

It isn't different, it shouldn't be different for a society.

What's the use to defend a society that isn't cared of? What's the use to care of a society that You can't defend?
 

Rodger

Ad Honorem
Jun 2014
6,171
US
Nothing's easy, and trying to do things good or better is even harder.

I simply do not think there's a "must choose" between defense and social.

Personally I believe is one of those absurd sterotypes we're fed (or we're feeding ourselves) with.

You, in Your family will do anything for them having a better life and You will do anything to protect them. But You will not spend everything for protecting them while cutting their schooling, renouncing healing them, feeding them with waste, would You?

It isn't different, it shouldn't be different for a society.

What's the use to defend a society that isn't cared of? What's the use to care of a society that You can't defend?
I agree with your argument to some degree. Yes, for my family I would do anything. And I worked a full time job and two part time jobs for a good portion of my years. Maybe I have become pessimistic, but it seems that two camps have become polemical. And I have met very few young people today willing to work that hard to achieve both ends. It may be anecdotal for the most part, but I have worked with adolescents and young adults most of my life, so my experience is broad. And frankly, I feel as if I have paid my dues. Fortunately, I am generous with my charitable giving, but this goes to causes or concerns of my choice :)
 

royal744

Ad Honoris
Jul 2013
10,734
San Antonio, Tx
I just read that Secretary General of NATO,Jens Stoltenberg has epressed that we need NATO more than ever. But as the saying goes there is time for everything. Could it be we should look if NATO is still "the one and only" for ts members, and could there in near future be anything like an even improved and better (so we could hope) alternative? There has been so many alliances throughout history so it is not that hard to think NATO is not the last word?
You might ask yourself if it’s necessary to reinvent wheels you’ve been riding on for the past 75 years.Maybe you’re “just tired” of something that has worked so well for so long. How many successful cooperative international defense alliances have there been? Very unusual in fact.
 
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royal744

Ad Honoris
Jul 2013
10,734
San Antonio, Tx
Americans propped up NATO for their own intetest- just so Europe didn't became Red.
Of course Americans propped up NATO in its own self-interest. Just like Europe has propped up NATO in pursuit of its own interests. Following WW2 after Lend-Lease was terminated but a few years later, Secretary of State George Marshall launched the Marshall Plan. The Marshall Plan saved Western Europe’s economy, but in many ways, it also saved the US economy because it created healthy trading partners.

I do not know of a single instance in contemporary politics and economics where one continent basically paid out vast sums of money in order to resurrect their destroyed economies.
 

royal744

Ad Honoris
Jul 2013
10,734
San Antonio, Tx
There is nothing wrong with enlightened self intersest. I think the creation of NATO was a far-sighted action that ultimately brought peace and stability to Europe and the whole Western world.
Hm, let’s see: 1870: Franco-Prussian War;
1914: First World War
1939: WW2
1945 - 2019: 74 years of no European War

Clearly, NATO has done a good job of preserving peace in Europe, so of course clueless people want to see it removed.
 

Linschoten

Ad Honoris
Aug 2010
16,214
Welsh Marches
No nation will support other nations in a military alliance unless it is in its national interest to do so, but that doesn't mean that it and those other nations don't have a shared interest in working together, and should make a fair contribution to the joint project in accordance with their resources.
 

royal744

Ad Honoris
Jul 2013
10,734
San Antonio, Tx
Thanks for the clarifications. I retract my comment re NATO wreaking havoc for rest of the world.
Flailing around and frantically waving one’s arms and shouting is no substitute for actually knowing anything about NATO and its mission.
 

royal744

Ad Honoris
Jul 2013
10,734
San Antonio, Tx
Some very poignant info about the issues of NATO

German Luftwaffe only has four operation-ready Eurofighter jets: report

Air Force has only four combat-ready "Eurofighter"

:lol: I cannot wait until NATO collapses. Good times ahead for Europe.
I agree that’s the best option. However, there’s a doomsday scenario where, irrespective of how much money Europe puts into it, the US decides it doesn’t need to be in NATO.

This probably will not happen if there’s “regime change” in Washington in the next election.